Education Minister promises Stonewall that school playgrounds will be properly policed to stop use of ‘gay’ insult

Micbael Gove, David Cameron’s Education Minister, has promised Stonewall that he will look into how to tighten up Hate Crime legislation to ensure that school playgrounds are properly policed to stop hate speech, such as children using the phrase, ‘That’s so gay!’ Michael Gove said:

‘One thing I will do is talk to Ben (Ben Summerskill, chief executive of Stonewall) and others about how we can make sure that the laws we’ve got at the moment are properly policed and also I’m always open if we need to sharpen the law because it’s not working, I’m always open to that argument.’

‘But I think one of the things I can do effectively is wherever there’s an opportunity on a public platform to say so, to say that it’s just utterly outrageous and medieval to think that to use the word gay as an insult is somehow acceptable.

‘Whether it’s Chris Moyles or anyone else does it, it’s wrong and they should be called out.’ 

That prejudice would sometimes find its expression in thoughtless words from disc jockeys or in language in playgrounds that wasn’t effectively policed.’ 

‘Therefore it was important even as we saw prejudice recede elsewhere to be more vigilant and more determined than ever to deal with this particular prejudice and the effect it had on young people.’

Protect the Pope comment: The Education Ministry has already mandated that schools keep a register of children who have been judged to have committed ‘homophobic’ acts, such as saying ‘that’s so gay!’ Now Michael Gove is promising Stonewall that he will tighten up Hate Crime legislation to ensure that school playgrounds are properly policed. It is outrageous that school children as young as 4 are being targeted as potential criminals and the school playgrounds up and down the land are going to be policed using Hate Crime legislation. All bullying is wrong, and good teachers and parents know how to challenge it, and protect children from it. Of course this is just what Stonewall want, political backing for them to have access into every school in the country so as to promote their homosexual agenda under the cover of ‘anti-homophobic bullying’. This is the Trojan horse they are using to take control of the school curriculum to impose their homo-social engineering. It’s not too hard to imagine that in the near future every school will have a branch of ‘Stonewall Youth’ to police the school playgrounds.



94 comments to Education Minister promises Stonewall that school playgrounds will be properly policed to stop use of ‘gay’ insult

  • ms Catholic state

    Sickening…..and of course they ignore the needs and voices of children and parents in this cosy little consensus. Only ‘gay’ children count and have rights in the parallel universe of our Elites. All children and all forms of bullying should be dealt with equally…and fairly, Mr Gove.

    Hey Teachers….leave our kids alone! Bullies.

    • ms Catholic state

      Bullying should be dealt with according to its severity….not according to its category, Mr Gove. Sheesh….basics! And we want Jesus Christ and Christianity in schools….not sin-peddling Stonewall.

  • Wake up England

    What a pity the Catholic Church has given up ITS teaching of our holy faith in Catholic schools.

    Now, instead of learning the 10 Commandments, the Seven Deadly sins and how to say the Angelus, they’ll be singing a new, sinister, song of “Gay Equality”. And they’ll be trained to sniff out the slightest whiff of anti-gayness anywhere.

    Rather redolent of Stalin’s Russia, really.

    Apropos of nothing in particular, dear readers: I had a fiercely left-wing feminist woman relation to stay with me in Portugal the other day (she’s married a cousin of ours). In a moment of the Veritas which comes from Vino, she piped-up that she had conducted a six-month lesbian affair (despite being married) because (and this is the jaw-dropping bit)


    This is a highly educated and successful barrister. Apparently, she assured me this Sapphic “rite of passage is extremely common amongst “Thinking” wimmin.

    It’s a queer old world, isn’t it?

  • Wake up England


    By the way, Stonewall and Mr Gove:

    Are we still allowed to say something’s Queer?

    What about “Fishy”?

  • Michael Petek

    This is only the first step.

    Note that there is no minimum age of responsibility for ‘crimespeak’.

    If a child is convicted of having taken Quentin Crisp’s name in vain, then the social workers will snatch him from his parents and will cause him to be adopted by a man and his husband.

  • “That’s so gay” sounds very like “that’s O.K.”! The possibilities are interesting.

    • Wake up England

      OOH NO Patricius:

      The Homo-fascists don’t like Quentin Crisp one little bit; you see he often said being a homosexual was un-natural and a great handicap (he was dead right, by the way). But Peter Tatchel et al are extremely cross with poor old Quentin (who, by the way, was extremely amusing). Quentin C also called God “You Know Who” which further annoyed Brisk Wall (or whatever it’s called) as everyone knows, of course, the Lesbians banned God years ago because he’s anti-feminist.
      Floreat Quenten!

      • Wake up England

        OOOH Sorry, I got quite over excited (easily done on this blog) and said Patricius
        when all along I meant dear Michael Petek!
        Silly me, must be those Pink Gins (are we still allowed those Mr Gove?)

  • Wake up England


    And another thing:

    Is the adjectival form of “Dyke” now banned under your new ridiculous secular and Godless PC rules?

    ((is that allowed Deacon Nick? delete if not by all means. Wouldn’t want to upset anyone’s self esteem))

  • Wake up England

    Oh Yes:

    mat we now say something’s a “Real Bummer” or…… not?

  • Wake up England

    ‘Spose “Fags” off too?

  • Wake up England

    “queen” might be dodgy

  • Verity Szukam

    Looking at my Chambers Dictionary (circa 1980), gay meant lively, bright, merry. It could also refer to homosexual as a slang term. Now the term ‘homosexual’ has been replaced by ‘gay’. I find it interesting that playground slang uses the word ‘gay’ to mean pathetic in a similar way to the slang use of ‘lame’. Are they going to be policing use of the expression ‘lame’ because it may be offensive to paraplegics? Clearly some of us are more equal than others.

  • Wake up England

    My 98 year old Grandmother’s in BIG, BIG TROUBLE.

    Guess what?

    She said the other day at a rowdy drinks party given for her great grandchildren:

    “I can’t say I like being at such a GAY party; so difficult to hear oneself think”



  • John Fannon

    The word ‘gay’ has been hijacked by the honosexualists, just as they hijacked other useful words like fairy, fruit, camp, queer. No doubt they will hijack others as the mood takes them. If Gove really wants to do something about bullying he should address the problem of cyber bullying amongst school children . My granddaughter was bullied in this way by children at her school and it did not stop when she got home – facebook mobile phones, text messages etc.she even got text messages from children from other schools who thought it was a good idea to have a go at someone they did not know. As the result, from an outgoing and friendly girl, she has been off school with depression and ME for over two years and stays in her room for the most part, where she feels safe.

    However, it is clear that Stonewall is now running the Tory party policy, and whatever they say will be implemented. How is this so called policing to be implemented? Who is going to pay for it? And what do they do when a five year old is heard using the shock horror word ‘gay’? Do thy arrest the parents – send them to the gay gulag perhaps? Do they take the child into care?

    I notice that Gove recently banned a Teacher whose religion was Seventh day Adventist and who told his pupils that homosexuality was a sin. if Gove would care to look at the Catholic Catechism, he would find that homosexuality is described as a grave depravity and against natural law. This could give him an excuse to close down all Catholic Schools.

    • Michael Petek

      I believe that Mr Gove and his puppet masters at Stonewall are indeed looking for an excuse to close down all Catholic schools.

      What we are looking at is a new religion that insists:

      (1) That gay is good, and that that it is compulsory.

      (2) That marriage, considered as the conjugal union of a man and a woman, is a forbidden union and that it is an offence for a man and a woman to represent themselves as husband and wife.

      (3) That every family founded upon marriage is an unlawful assembly.

      (4) That the above points must be held definitively by everyone, and that whoever dissents is a social deviant.

      So, yes, there will be Stonewall monitors in every school, and if a child offends the parents will be arrested. They will be sent to the gay gulag, and all their children will be taken into care?

      By the time these totalitarian terrorists have done their work, we will see the wisdom in God’s destruction of Sodom and in the harsh punishments the Law of Moses prescribed in these matters.

      • Deacon Nick Donnelly

        Michael, Jesus’ command that we love our enemies supersedes and corrects the Law of Moses. Deacon Nick

        • Michael Petek

          Incorrect, Nick. The Law of Moses only ever bound Jews, and they are released from it on baptism. So the Covenant of Moses is superseded by that of Jesus Christ, but not to the exclusion of certain Mosaic precepts which the New Covenant might resume on a case by case basis.

          Even though the Law of Moses does not apply to Christians, the principles which guaranteed the justice of its provisions remain in place, and they have to be discovered by means of legal reasoning.

          The God who is Love and who commands us to love our enemies is the same God who punished Pharaoh for taking Abraham’s wife, albeit inadvertently (Genesis 12), destroyed the city of Sodom for its homosexualist culture and its other sins (Genesis 19; Ezekiel 16)), threatened Abimelech with death when he was about to take Abraham’s wife (Genesis 20), slew Onan for interrupting the marital act (Genesis 38), and warned that if anyone corrupts a child it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied to him (Matthew 18:6)

          If it is found from experience that the toleration of homosexualist ideas is irreconcilable with maintaining the stability of the bond and the institution of marriage and the family, one or the other of these options is going to have to move over.

          • Michael B Rooke

            Deacon Nick is totally correct.

            The Catholic Church [1] considers three criteria [2] for interpreting scripture, content and unity of the whole Scripture, the living Tradition of the whole Church, the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

            The literal and spiritual analysis of the Bible is summed up by the a mediaeval couplet ascribed to Augustine of Dacia.
            The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
            The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny

            Letter meaning the recorded history. Allegory the figurative symbolism used to express truth, The moral being the unity of the natural law [3] with the revealed instructions as expressed in the Decalogue[4]. Anagogy is the viewing of events in terms of their eternal significance.

            Regarding the OT “the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men.” [5]

            The unity of the OT and the NT has been shown by the prefigured events of the OT being accomplished in the NT with Jesus Christ. [6]

            “The Bible And Morality Biblical Roots Of Christian Conduct” [7]

            The revelation of this morality takes place in gradual development and in dialogue between God and his people. For this reason the moral teaching of the Bible cannot be reduced to a set of principles or to codes of casuistical laws. Biblical texts cannot be treated as pages of a moral system, they should rather be viewed dynamically in the growing light of revelation. God enters the world and reveals himself increasingly, he addresses himself to people and provokes them to comprehend his will more deeply, making it possible for them to follow him ever more closely. This light reaches its peak in the coming of Christ, who confirmed the teaching of Moses and the prophets (Matt 22.34–40) and instructed his people and humanity at large by his own authority (Matt 28,.9–20).”

            122. In Matt 5.38–42 Jesus says: “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’. But I say to you. Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also….”. There is an advance from excessive vengeance to equality of retaliation until finally the chain of retribution is overcome. In Gen 4.23–24 Lamech, a descendant of Cain, is presented as a man who vaunts an unbridled vengeance in his song: “I have killed a man for wounding me, a young man for striking me. If Cain is avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”. The covenant code replaces this with the law of retaliation: “If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.” (Ex 2123–24). This law is also to be found in the lawcodes of other ancient oriental peoples with the purpose of preventing disproportionate vengeance. Already in many psalms Israel proclaims through the voice of the injured party that vengeance belongs only to God: “O LORD, you God of vengeance, you God of vengeance, shine forth!” (Ps 94,1). The wisdom books too reverse the law of retaliation: “If your enemies are hungry, give them bread to eat; and if they are thirsty, give them water to drink: for you will heap coals of fire on their heads, and the LORD will reward you.” (Prov 25.21–22).

            Jesus refers explicitly to Gen 4.23–24 to reverse completely the cycle of vengeance: “Then Peter came and said to him, ‘Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often should I forgive him? As many as seven times? Jesus said to him, ‘Not seven times, but, I tell you, seventy-seven times.” (Matt 18.21–22). He establishes forgiveness and love as the criteria for belonging to the Father: “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven.” (Matt 5.44–45; cf. 18.21)…..

            The use of Biblical language might be noted in The Word Of God In The Life And Mission Of The Church (Instrumentum Laboris) [8]
            “The Bible is singularly united to the Word of God. The Bible itself attests to the intentional identification of the Word of God with Scripture. The Word of God is a living, effective reality (cf. Heb 4: 12-13); it is eternal (cf. Is 40:8), “all-powerful” (Wis 18:15), a creative force (cf. Gn 1:3ff) and originator of history. In the New Testament, this Word is the very Son of God, the Word made flesh (cf. Jn 1:1ff; Heb 1:2). Scripture also attests to the relationship between God and humankind, casting light upon it and guiding it in a certain way. At the same time, the Word of God extends beyond the Book, reaching humanity through the living Tradition of the Church. This understanding of the Word of God works against a private interpretation of the Bible and one confined to Scripture only. Instead, the Bible is read in a wider, unending procession of the Word of God, as shown in the fact that the Word continues to nourish generation after generation in always new and different times. With this understanding, the Christian community then becomes the agent for transmitting the Word of God, and, at the same time, the privileged place for understanding the deep meaning of Sacred Scripture in a progression of expressing the faith and, thereby, in a development of dogma. Because of this prerogative, the Church, from the very beginning, has held the books of the Bible in veneration and established with certainty a definitive list through precepts in the canon of Divine Books: 73 books, 46 of which comprise the Old Testament and 27, the New Testament (12).

            b. The Spirit breathes life into the written word, placing the Book in the wider mystery of the Incarnation and the Church. The Spirit makes the Word of God a liturgical and prophetic reality, which is a proclamation (kerygma) before it is a Book and a testimonial of the Holy Spirit to the presence of Christ.

            c. In summary, the following can be said with certainty:

            — the charism of inspiration allows God to be the author of the Bible in a way that does not exclude humankind itself from being its true author. In fact, inspiration is different from dictation; it leaves the freedom and personal capacity of the writer in tact, while enlightening and inspiring both;

            — with regards to what might be inspired in the many parts of Sacred Scripture, inerrancy applies only to “that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation” (DV 11);

            The Old Testament is to be understood as a stage in the development of the faith and coming to know God. Its figurative character and its relationship to the scientific and historical mentality of our times need clarification. At the same time, numerous Old Testament passages have a spiritual, acute and uniquely cultural force. They provide a rich catechesis on human realities and illustrate stages in the journey of faith of the People of God. Knowing and reading the Gospels do not exclude a greater understanding of the Old Testament; instead the Old Testament gives a greater depth to the reading and understanding of the New Testament.”

            Language such as “And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.” (Ex 7:3) clearly show the Hebrew interpretation of events and attribution to God a capricious liberty that is inconsistent with the God of consistency and love who is Existence, the I Am Who Am.

            [1] St Cyril of Jerusalem (313-350 AD) provides a definition of catholic Church in a catechesis before baptism.

            CCC 112-114. Cf. DV 12 § 4.

            Natural Law. CCC
            1978 The natural law is a participation in God’s wisdom and goodness by man formed in the image of his Creator. It expresses the dignity of the human person and forms the basis of his fundamental rights and duties.

            1979 The natural law is immutable, permanent throughout history. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. It is a necessary foundation for the erection of moral rules and civil law.

            1962 …God wrote on the tables of the Law what men did not read in their hearts.
            2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each “word” refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. The two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others. One cannot honour another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. The Decalogue brings man’s religious and social life into unity. .
            2070 … The Decalogue contains a privileged expression of the natural law..

            CCC 122 Cf. DV 15.

            CCC 128 The Church, as early as apostolic times, and then constantly in her Tradition, has illuminated the unity of the divine plan in the two Testaments through typology, which discerns in God’s works of the Old Covenant prefigurations of what he accomplished in the fullness of time in the person of his incarnate Son. (Cf. 1 Cor 10:6,11; Heb 10:l; l Pet 3:21.)

            OT Old Testament
            NT New Testament

            CCC Catechism of the Catholic Church

            DV Dei Verbum



    • Wake up England

      John Fannon

      Marvellous post. Hear hear!

  • Denis

    On a slightly different note when you have heard truculent fourteen year olds use expressions like “those shoes are really gay” or variations on that theme ad nauseam and I do mean ad nauseam, you might be persuaded that it really would be a fantastic idea to bring back hanging for the charming little darlings who have such a wonderful way with words.

  • Same old, same old

    To say that words such as fairy, fruit, camp and queer were ‘hijacked’ by homosexualists is either bizarre or paranoid – probably both.

    They are actually words that were used by bigots to cause insult or offence an if they’ve been reclaimed by the gay community in order to reduce the sting then that’s an effort that has been worth making but one that shouldn’t have been needed.

    When I was at school there were words and phrases we weren’t allowed to use because they were offensive to Catholics and Jews, and it’s a good thing that these words were considered to be wrong.

    some school boards in the USA banned use of the word gay in their schools, but, as that was for the completely different reason of trying to make sure that the subject was not discussed at all, I don’t remember any condemnation from the catholic community.

    Other schools have banned images or rainbows because of their supposed association. Is it still OK to use the words ‘fruitcake’ and ‘dinosaur’?

    • Wake up England

      Same old

      Utter nonsense.

      The word Gay has certainly been hijacked by homosexuals

      • John Fannon


        I’ve just looked at the list of homosexual slang in Wikipedia from a link provided by That The Bones you havr crushed my Thrill blog. I wish I hadn’t as most of them are pretty revolting. But it’s clear that the list is very large.

  • Nicolas Bellord

    Looking through Punch for 1932 there is a full-page cartoon gently mocking a call to make Registry Offices gayer. Little did they know what was down the road!

    And yet in to-days Parish leaflet I read the following comment on to-day’s Gospel about whether circumcision is necessary:

    “In the present age some insist that it is a divine position that women cannot be ordained to the Catholic priesthood. Others maintain very diverse opinions about all sorts of human relationship problems that beset our world as we move into the second decade of a new Millennium. Many of the issues that people hold forth on at great length are more a question of discipline than God’s law. The basic question is not whether there has been a strong tradition in Catholicism about a certain matter but what is God’s teaching in these matters. History clearly shows that we have been wrong before now – or is the world flat after all?!”

    On William Oddie’s blog I read about how our Bishop “protects gay clergy” – a good thing according to the commentator.

    Oh dear!

  • ms Catholic state

    Parents whose children have been criminalised in this way need to sue! It is just Stalinist that this type of monitoring should be occurring in our schools. Maybe SPUC could help.

    Teachers need to have respect for all children. And if they cannot deal with simple name-calling….then call parents and we will show them how. Or leave the profession. Parents and children deserve better!

  • ms Catholic state

    One reason why this is so sickening….it targets children! They are an easy target for PC fanatics and homosexualists I guess. So cowardly.

    But who is monitoring our teachers I wonder!

  • Lynda

    Child abuse and interference in moral education by parents and teachers. The state has no proper role in children’s education.

  • ms Catholic state
    You obviously haven’t a clue what PC junk teachers have to put up with in order to keep their jobs! They have to cow tow to every whim and perceived “injustice” that the kids complain about and that’s just when they are being asked to display basic manners (something many of them know very little about)

  • Before we all get too upset. Catholics have a Christian duty to care for the vulnerable. Boys and girls who are trying to grow up struggling with the knowledge that they are not like their schoolmates but are gay – are among those vulnerable. All that Mr Gove has said is that there will be special concern in playgrounds to watch out for bullying. There are too many examples of real misery among such children – even leading to suicide. Far from being an attack on Catholic schools, they should be the first to seek to protect those who are not as fortunate as most of us. Many of the comments on your blog show just how much needs to be done before we learn to love one another as Jesus commanded. The Church condemns homosexual acts. It never condemns homosexual people.

    • Andrzej


      “The Church condemns homosexual acts. It never condemns homosexual people.” But that can be said of every sin and sinner. The Church does not “condemn” people with adulterous or pedophile desires, but does condemns those “acts” (btw, freely entertaining sinful thoughts is also an act).

      While bullying kids that might be contemplating that they are gay (a phenomenon surely to be on the rise now) is unacceptable, even more unacceptable is demanding that others support these kids in “accepting” such distorted desires.

    • ms Catholic state

      Frederick….Catholic schools if they are really Catholic are best equipped to deal with bullying….of all types. But no Catholic Head (or any other Head) can prioritise anti-gay bullying over any other type of bullying. Bullying should be dealt with according to severity….not type. This is the sort of thing that causes resentment among parents and children, because it is so unfair. Also…Catholic schools have to promote the notion that while all people are loved by God….not all acts are, whether our society likes it or not.

      And the idea that children are being snooped upon by teachers…and recorded as criminals…makes ones blood boil. As I said….who is monitoring the teachers?!

    • John Fannon

      As far as I read this, Gove spoke of ‘policing’ the playgrounds and seeking our the homophobic bullies. In the town where I live there have been at least two instances of children commuting suicide (one jumping off multi-storey car park roof) and this was bullying – nothing to do with homophobic bullying.

      The schools admit that they are almost powerless. In the old days, they said, any disputes and name calling in the playground would be sorted out overnight but today, it continues via the Internet and mobile phones.

      With the experience of my own family, complaints to the police do not elicit a useful response. The best response the police make is ask for the phone calls, messages to be carefully recorded, and if there is a trend then they will do something. (This is something that a child that is upset is very unlikely to do) Whereas when the police got an anonymous? complaint recently that a street preacher was saying something hurtful to homosexuals, they were round quick as a flash and had their hands on his collar in no time

      I note also that this Government has warned certain countries that their aid will be cut unless they protect homosexuals in their country. Strangely they are silent when it comes to likewise threatening the likes of Pakistan or some African countries with their appalling record of murder of Christians..

    • Lynda

      Of course, bullying is wrong – we all know that. It has always been regarded as immoral behaviour in Catholic schools and among Catholics generally. That’s not the issue here. The issue is the bullying and oppression by the state, Stonewall and others, the propagandising of our vulnerable and impressionable children to accept evil is good, and good, evil, the interference in family and school authority, relationships – not to mention the inflicting of terrible damage on those who might sometimes, for one reason or another, feel attracted to persons of their own sex.

  • Same old, same old

    Until the comment from Frederick Oakeley there has been no mention on this thread about the bullying and intimidation doled out to supposedly ‘gay’ pupils. Instead there has been a tirade of snide comments about thought police and crimes against vocabulary. As ever, it is good to see that you have your priorities in order.

    • ms Catholic state

      But hey Same old,…haven’t you heard…Mr Gove will make sure all the stops are pulled out for ‘gay’ pupils, even criminalising 4 year olds if needs be….but precious little is done for the victims of non-gay bullying. So you have nothing to complain about! It is the parents of ordinary children that should be complaining. And when they know what is going on….they will be.

      Let’s not differentiate between children! That’s discrimination.

    • Wake up England

      Same Old:

      I was quite obviously a homosexual at school from 7 to 18.

      Sure, sometimes I was teased; that’s what made me learn to stick up for myself. That lesson has stood me in very good stead in life. Most of my homosexual friends (and I have many) are highly able to look after themselves. We’re not a bunch of shrinking violets.

      I think far too much is being made of the “gay” issue. I’m sure Gay Rights are now mostly promoted by cynical heterosexual people to catch votes.

      In addition Gay Rights is practically the last “cause” left.

      So all those feminist women who burned their bras in 1968 are rebels without a cause now; so they and their militant disciples have taken up Equal Right for Queers. It’s the only battle left.

  • Wake up England

    Completely off the current topic:

    I see with surprise that The Pope used a wooden chalice made from a shipwreck the other day whilst several of his con-celebrants wore baseball caps whilst saying Mass.

    Oh Dear.

  • Same old, same old

    “Bullying should be dealt with according to severity….not type”, says MCS. Absolutely. But the obvious conclusion from that is to treat homophobic bullying with all the rigour that schools would do with racist or religious bullying. This isn’t a case of any school being told to stop acting against racism and concentrate solely on homophobia. And as for the comment about the parents of “ordinary” children, well, I despair.

    Of course children are not going to be criminalised and to claim that they will be is monstrous. To make the same comparison as before, just because there have been laws about inflaming racial hatred doesn’t mean that Wormwood Scrubs is full of four year olds. On the other hand, do you think that homosexual acts should be recriminalised?

    And no, WUE, anyone who reads 95% of the contributions to this blog would realise that “Equal Rights For Queers” is anything like the only battle left.

    I am genuinely delighted that you survived the teasing you got at school and that you’re not one of the 25% of LGBT (“Queer”) pupils who have contemplated or attempted suicide.

    • Wake up England

      Same Old

      Attempting or contemplating suicide is a Mortal Sin. We were taught that in the Catechism at school. So no it never crossed my mind.

      I went to Confession, Mass and Benediction. I said the Rosary every night; we were all taught to box and games were compulsory for two whole afternoons each week.

      “Homophobia” hadn’t been invented then and we all managed rather well (Gay or Straight).

      So, Stonewall and Mr Gove: Maybe the answer’s to expose children to the Sacraments, the Rosary and the “Penny” catechism. They worked just fine for us at school. Stonewall hadn’t been invented, of course.

      No one ever dreamed of Committing Suicide.

      • John Dare

        What school was that WUE?

        • Wake up England

          Well, John Dare:

          Why would you want to know that? You’ve asked me before where I went to school and what I do for a “job” Are you planning a clumsy defence of Peterism? Yes or No?

          If you can demonstrate a bona fide reason to know where I went to school which will enhance the debate here, I will tell you. After all I have nothing to hide. As things are at the moment I can’t see such a reason.

          I think all you need to know is that

          I am not a Priest
          or a Deacon
          nor a religious
          I have nothing at all to hide.

          • Wake up England

            John Dare:

            Perhaps you could ask your friend Peter whether

            he’s a priest?

            Or a Deacon?

            Or a religious?

            or whether he has been any of the above and been asked to leave?

            He’s being mighty coy about answering (and PLEASE don’t draw a parallel between your silly questions about my schooldays and my questions of Peter).

          • John Dare

            No idea who Peter is WUE, but this all takes me back to Whinney Hill school in the 60′s.

          • Wake up England

            John Dare:

            Never heard of Whinny Hill School; and not remotely interested in hearing, either.

          • John Dare

            That was very rude WUE.

    • ms Catholic state

      Again Same old,….you are putting children into categories according to the reason they are bullied. What of children who don’t fit into the racist, religious or sexuality categories?! Children who are fat, or poor, or not very beautiful?! Is it OK to bully them, as the ‘great and the good’ imply in word and action?! Their suffering is less than the suffering of others who fit into official PC categories, is it?! Well a lot of people seem to think so. And this is monstrous…and evil!

      We should find out for definite if children are being criminalised. Time for an end to secrecy in our schools. And don’t try to undermine my point. Children may not be in Wormwood Scrubs….but they may have criminal records! And this is something worthy of North Korea….only I bet even North Korea don’t go that far! Why is Mr Gove not backing the cause of these poor mites?!

      • same old, same old

        Of course it isn’t OK to bully them. I just didn’t think you wanted a full list of those it is wrong to bully (which would be ‘everyone’) and had just picked out a couple of examples. I am not putting children into categories at all, I’m saying that they shouldn’t be put into one by the bullies or the bigots.

        WUE’s ignorant suggestion that “homophobia hadn’t been invented then” is beyond answer or parody. And if his only reaction to those pupils who have considered suicide because of such bullying is to heap further guilt on them by berating them for their thoughts I have nothing but contempt.

        The point about children having criminal records is bizarre. Please show us all the slightest evidence that this is going to happen (rather than flights of fancy that it might). The further point about this being worse than North Korea is a huge insult to those that have to live under the oppression in that state – there is simply no comparison.

        • Wake up England

          Same Old:

          I am far from ignorant on the subject. I’ve lived through the entire thing first hand. Have you?

          You don’t like an openly homosexual person disagreeing with your potty ideas.

          I have “berated” no-one and the fact you think my views are “Beyond answer” is because I am right; what answer could you possibly have?

          Suicide is wrong; and the very grave wrongness of it should be taught in schools. A sense of Guilt is, in fact a good thing. It helps us not to do wrong – not to offend Almighty God – not to sin.

          Considering committing a grave sin (eg suicide) should make us feel guilty; and we should confess it and seek God’s forgiveness.

          If Myra Hindley and John Brady had felt a bit more guilt over their plans, perhaps they would not have committed such awful crimes.

          Your trouble Same Old is that you’re so determinedly anti-Catholic you will never understand our faith which comes from God.

          I couldn’t give a monkey’s if you hold me in contempt. My views are those of the Catholic church; so if you have contempt for me, then you have contempt for all who uphold God’s teachings. Big deal. I don’t think many people all that bothered about what you think.

          I, on the other hand, have millions of people world-wide in my camp.

          I find it impossible to take you seriously.

          • Same old, same old

            The point remains that many pupils in this country have contemplated suicide because of the bullying they have been on the wrong end of at school. Yet your response to that has been to attack the bullied rather than the bullies. You then perform the age-old act of the zealot by claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is an attack on God.

            The ‘beyond answer’ comment I made was about your hilarious claim that at the time you were at school “homophobia had not been invented”. If only that were true. It is also interesting to note that the more your personal beliefs are put to the the more hyperbolic your replies become. It seems now that pupils considering suicide because of the actions of the bullies are now being compared to Myra Hindley and John (sic) Brady. I find it impossible to take you seriously.

            John Fannon complained earlier that the ‘homosexualists’ had hijacked words such as “camp” and yet
            you’ve just been able to use it quite legitimately – well, at least in context if not in any kind of reality.

          • Wake up England

            Same Old Ranting:

            1) Suicide is a sin. I do “attack” anyone. I merely say it because it is true. Anyone who disagrees with this is attacking God. So you’re starting to get the picture (if slowly).

            2)”Homophobia” had not been invented when I was at school. Whether you find it hilarious or not is unimportant. My “Personal Beliefs” as you misguidedly call them are simply those of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. As I said here before, they’re shared by million and millions of people. You don’t share them: big deal; sad for you.

            3) Sin is sin (some are more serious than others) whether committed by Hindley & Brady or someone committing suicide. IF suicide is committed with full consent and deliberation; and in the full knowledge that it’s a Grave Matter – then it’s far, far worse than murder. The point I was making (which you conveniently leave out of your cross little reply) is that a sense of GUILT is a very good thing; one should feel guilty about doing that which is wrong. Getting the hang of it a little more now?

            4) I’m a homosexual and I used the word “Camp” well hot-diggerty-dog – get over yourself, dear.

          • Same old, same old

            1) So anyone who disagrees with you is attacking God. Oh yes, I certainly am starting to get the picture! I had a similar conversation with somebody last week who told me basically the same thing. He’s a Muslim.

            2) You still insist that there was no such thing as homophobia at the time you were at school. Was there any racism or was that still patent pending? (See also Note 1 with regard to beliefs that are shared by millions).

            3) Still not a single word from you about the victims of bullying. Maybe you could have a chat with Myra Hindley about this when you meet her in heaven – after all that’s where she’s claims she is heading because of the fact that she was ‘absolved’ each week by her prison chaplain. And now you just get sillier by claiming that suicide is worse than murder. Please don’t explain that one to me.

            4) I have no problem with your use of the word ‘camp’, I was merely pointing out that the word has not been hijacked.

          • Wake up England

            Same Old Cross Patch,

            So it’s not only Catholics for whom you “have nothing but contempt”, it’s Muslims too. Looks like you’re alienating yourself from well over half the world’s population. Don’t suppose they’ll see that as much of a loss.

            To answer your grumpy question: Yes, you’ve finally got it. If you attack my beliefs, you’re attacking God’s (so long as my beliefs concur Catholic teaching). Ker-ching: Same old finally gets the point. The penny drops.

            I insist there was no homophobia when I was at school because it’s true. You’re furious about that aren’t you?

            There wasn’t any racism either. We had several black people at school; a few Indians; several Jews. Everyone just got on with it. You just can’t BEAR the fact we all rubbed along okay without counselling from Brick Wall, or whatever it’s called, can you? Well we managed just FINE.

            If anyone was bullied it was pretty swiftly sorted-out by prefects and heads of house. Shock-horror we were beaten sometimes too; doubtless that will send you into a whirl of politically correct fury.

            As you’re not interested in Catholic teaching I won’t bother explaining why suicide is a far worse sin than murder. Anyway, you probably wouldn’t understand. Given you’re busy trolling this blog day in and day out, I’m surprised you haven’t had the wit to learn the basic beliefs of Catholicism. If you did, your posts might be slightly more interesting.

            I profoundly hope Myra Hindley is in Heaven. She died, I believe, a good Catholic.

            I am agog with indifference about your views on the word camp.

          • same old, same old

            The actual comment I made was that if your ONLY reaction to hearing that many people have considered committing suicide after being bullied was to heap further blame on the victim rather than the perpetrator then I have nothing but contempt for you personally.

            And my comments about the conversation with a Muslim friend was that he basically told me the same as you do – if I don’t agree with him on any particular subject then I am attacking God. The point is that he was saying something at the time that you would also disagree with and therefore you would have been attacking God in his eyes, and he in yours.

            You have then converted this into me having nothing but contempt for all Catholics and all Muslims. I thought there was nothing you could say that would lead me to having more contempt for you. I apologise, I was wrong.

            Back to your obscene comments about suicide being worse than murder. To use the analogy that you originally brought up – that of Ian Brady. He murdered five children and unless I’ve got this wrong you are saying that he is committing an even worse sin by wanting to be able to commit suicide.

            Hitler was responsible for the murder of millions (many of them because of their race or sexuality, even though you insist that racism and homophobia didn’t exist until well after you left school) but Hitler’s real crime seems to be that in the end he took his own life.

            I mentioned your remarks on this subject to quite a few people last night, all of them Catholic. They were unanimous in saying that your opinion is shameful, not based on any scripture and certainly not one they share. So much for you speaking for millions.

        • ms Catholic state

          Same Old….The full list of those who should not be bullied is very easy to compile….Human beings should not be bullied. That’s the whole list. Amazing how some people cannot grasp this.

        • Wake up England

          Same Old Fury:

          Your personal opinion of me is really supremely uninteresting, to me and (I should imagine) to everyone else.

          How I stand in your estimation worries me not one jot. However, I am very concerned about wht Almighty God thinks of me, which is why I believe in Him and everything his Church teaches.

          You conveniently neglect to say what the subject of your conversation with your Muslim friend was; so it’s impossible for me either to agree or disagree.

          Suicide whether committed by Hitler, Brady or anyone else is a far greater sin than murder. Funnily enough I do know about Hitler’s appalling crimes Whether you like it or whether you don’t like it, it is the teaching of the Catholic Church that deliberate suicide is a greater sin than wilful murder. If your Catholic friends don’t uphold the teachings of the church then that’s up to them.

          • Same old, same old

            The Muslim friend was trying to explain to me why it was right, according to the Holy Book, that there should be different procedures of divorce depending on whether it was initiated by the husband or wife. Apparently anyone who disagrees with that is attacking God.

            And which was worse, WUE – the Holocaust or Hitler’s suicide?

          • Wake up England

            Same old

            You cannot have been paying much attention.

            Three things are necessary for a sin to be “Mortal” (ie deserving everlasting Hell)

            1) Full Consent
            2) Grave Matter
            3) Full knowledge

            Assuming the three are all present suicide is a more serious sin than murder.

            Obviously, murdering six million people is much worse than murdering one, nem con.

            Murdering one’s mother is more grave than murdering a stranger.

            However, the Catholic Church teaches suicide is much worse. Therefore the worst sin committed by Hitler would have been killing himself (if conditions 1,2 and 3 were met by him when he committed suicide).

            The church in practise tries hard wherever possible not to condemn suicides as Mortal Sins, preferring to suppose the person was not in their right mind at the time of the said suicide; or supposing great fear (eg of torture etc).

            You asked me not to explain the whys and wherefores to you, but as you quite obviously haven’t the faintest idea I am going to explain it (for the benefit of people reading this).

            To carry on the example of Ian Brady (the infamous “Moors Murderer” who tortured, raped and murdered several children in the 1960s):

            He can repent his sins; go to confession and be forgiven through the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary (perpetuated in the Mass). Indeed, his accomplice, Myra Hindley, died a good Catholic.

            Killing himself a worse sin than his truly dreadful murders. I am pleased that the State has prevented him from committing the worst sin of all: suicide.

            Killing oneself is “throwing in the towel” and gives no chance for repentance and absolution; so one is wilfully dying in a state of Mortal sin.

            Suicide is the very worst sin there is.

            Therefore, Hitler’s dreadful crimes (for which he would rightly have been hanged) were still not as terrible as committing suicide (assuming he was in his right mind; deliberated the action and knew it to be gravely wrong).

            My comments are not “obscene” as you call them. They are the teaching of the Catholic Church.

            The Church of England held the same view until fairly recently.

            So does the Muslim faith, for what it’s worth.

            So before you gush forth more hatred and invective, stop to ponder the fact that very many more people in this world share the Catholic viewpoint than share your opinion.

            And if you do decide to reply, try not to spit venom; it’s not an intelligent way to conduct a mature debate.

          • same old, same old

            I have been paying rapt attention, WUE. I’ve been reading your replies carefully and trying to explain why I (and millions of others) would disagree with your view. I also hope that I haven’t misinterpreted your position, if I have then I apologise, In fact I have said a couple of things that I thought on reflection might be provocative only to find out later that you did mean exactly what I first thought you did.

            Witness your comment that “the worst sin committed by Hitler would have been killing himself” and that this was because by committing suicide he was giving no chance for repentance and absolution. You are leaving out one factor from that line of thinking – in fact you are leaving out more than six million.

            Even taking your own criteria I don’t see how it follows that murdering your own mother is worse than murdering a stranger – does this also go for other family members and for friends and colleagues?

          • Wake up England

            Same Old:

            I don’t doubt that millions of people disagree with what you term My View.

            First may I reiterate: it is The View of The Catholic Church; that is where I get My View from.

            I hope you haven’t misinterpreted my position. It is (I hope) clearly put in simple language.

            I am not “Leaving Out” the fate of six million souls murdered because of the Nazi heresy. The murdering six million people is beyond my (or your) ability to comprehend in terms of wickedness. I am not underestimating this grave, grave crime.

            Like you I know about the dreadful and shocking treatment meted out by Hitler’s appalling machine. (We’re heading that way again with the fascism of Political Correctness, by the way. This time it will be Christians who are suppressed).

            We Catholics (should) look at life with a God-centred outlook. We should not look at life from a mankind (Humankind, as you would probably say) point-of-view.

            Once Almighty God becomes the focus of your goals things are very different from people-centred goals.

            Of course Hitler is a good example; here we have an extreme. He is the most wicked and awful person most of us can imagine.

            However, if he repented of his sins, however mind-blowingly awful they might have been, God would have forgiven him. Jesus Christ offered himself as a sacrifice to appease a Very Cross God. This sacrifice is so powerful, so complete, that EVEN ADOLF HITLER could have been forgiven had he chosen to offer this sacrifice up to God in propitiation for his (dreadful) sins.

            Now, IF Hitler committed suicide (which is a Grave Matter) with full deliberation and in full consent of his actions (eg not mad, or drunk, or terrified or drugged or “persuaded”) that would be a deliberate choice to reject – once and for all – the offer of salvation God made to us all when he sent Jesus Christ (true man and true God, the second person of the Holy Trinity) to effect our salvation as the one perfect sacrifice, offered to God by the Perfect and sinless Man/God on behalf of the Human Race for all time. That’s a difficult sentence to comprehend. Please read it again.

            A final rejection of Almighty God is the worst thing anyone can do. And that is what suicide is. Therefore it is worse EVEN than killing six million (maybe more) people.

            If you take the “GOD” part away, of course, what the Church teaches becomes ridiculous. But that’s the difference, Same Old, between you and the Catholic Church.

            Committing suicide is THE WORST SIN THERE IS. A final rejection of God’s mercy.

          • Same old, same old

            It wouldn’t really matter how many times I read that paragraph, My disagreement with it is not through not understanding it but because it’s wrong. I realise that by disagreeing with you I will supposedly be attacking God but I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt by saying that I gravely doubt that your statement about suicide truly is the teaching of the Church. If it is then that doesn’t make the claim any better.

            It doesn’t really stand up to a moment’s scrutiny and the questions it raises are too long a list to mention here. However the main one is that you make no mention of is the lack of opportunity for Hitler’s millions of victims to accept the offer of salvation – particularly the non-Catholics.

          • Wake up England

            Same old

            I “Learned” the Catholic Faith by being taught it at from a child you see. Through catechism lessons (the Old Catechism, now not used).
            Through preparation for First Communion.
            Preparation for Confirmation.
            Divinity lessons at school (given by a priest)
            Conversations with priests on knows (and knew)
            Listening to countless sermons in church at Mass
            As well as reading a great many books.

            Your judgement of Myra Hindley tells us an awful lot about you I’m afraid. And it looks rather ugly. Cynical, Lacking in compassion. Profoundly un Christian, Nasty. You have no idea in what state her soul was when she died. You automatically think the worst.

            I say what I say about Hitler and Myra Hindley because it is the view of the Church.

            If you HAVE read the Catechism it must be clear to you that the Church teaches that the sin against Hope generated by wilful suicide is Very Grave.

            Suicide is murder of oneself.

            You must also logically be able to understand the Church’s teaching that those who die UNREPENTANT in a state of Mortal Sin go to Hell.

            Ergo, if you (say) shoot yourself deliberately you are ensuring you go to hell.

            This is not NECESSARILY true of a murderer who can repent before he dies.

            This is why suicide is worse.

            Until fairly recently, Same old. Suicides were denied a Christian burial; but repentant murderers were.

            Deacon Nick, please will you confirm what I am saying here to Same OLd is the teaching of the Church?

        • Wake up England

          Same Old:

          That you reject the teachings of the Catholic Faith does not come as a surprise to me in the least.

          However, the fact that you choose to remain ignorant of the Church’s teachings does surprise me.

          It is quite obvious (evinced by the correspondence between you and me above) that you know practically nothing of Catholic teaching; rather a surprise when you’re forever attacking it in this blog.

          In order to either condemn or defend something, surely a knowledge of the subject is pre-requisite? As things are, your endless railing against the Church looks so weak as to be pointless ill-informed ranting.

          • Same old, same old

            Then please can you show me the teaching that says what you claim it does. If at all possible then an actual statement from the Church (or maybe even the Bible) rather than some twisted interpretation of an ambiguous phrase quoted out of context. As you say, I am struggling to condemn something that probably isn’t there.

        • Wake up England

          Same old -

          Sorry I thought you said something like “and please don’t bother to explain that to me” a few boxes back.

          Taking one part of Catholic teaching out of context of the whole is often counter-productive. If you want to know what the Church teaches, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

          Having said that, I will endeavour to clarify what you want to know and shew a written source if I can, What PRECISELY is “The Teaching” you’re struggling to believe?

          • Wake up England

            Do you mean Hitler/suicide?

          • Same old, same old

            I agree that I asked not to explain your claim that suicide is worse than murder and now I am asking you to do just that. I have read the Catechism and cannot find any part that suggests what you say is correct or the teachings of the Church. If it is in there then I would say that it is just plain wrong – not that I disagree with it but that it is a nonsense.

            I have also read lots of other catholic sources that ‘inform’ me that the worst sin is not suicide but treachery, hurting children, denial of the existence of God, sodomy, contraception, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, contraception and, with more nominations than any other, pride. Take your pick. I suppose whichever I pick I’m denying the rest and therefore attacking God.

          • Wake up England

            Same old Anti Catholic:

            Look, You disagree with the churches teachings:

            you say “I have read the Catechism”

            You say and,…..”I cannot find any part that suggests what you say is correct”

            You say “If it is in there I would say that it is just plain wrong”

            very oddly you also say “Not that I disagree with it but that it is a nonsense”

            Quite obviously you HAVE NOT read the Catechism. had you read it you would not ne making the comments you are making.

            In order to comment on any subject with any integrity it is seminal to know something about it; and by the demonstration of your recent correspondence above with me, it is crystal clear you are enormously ignorant of the subject about which you appear so keen to debate (Catholicism). Ergo you are not in any position to hold a VALID opinion.

            I cannot possibly teach you the Catholic Faith here on this blog.

            Learn it (even simply) and then begin your argument.

            For those reading who have a better grasp of Catholic teaching than Same old:

            Suicide (with wilful intent and full assent) is a manifestation against Faith Hope and Charity.

            The Catechism tells us that our duty to saving or own souls surpasses that of helping other people to save theirs.

            Murder is a grave sin “Crying to Heaven for Vengeance” (as the church has taught since time immemorial).

            Also since time immemorial the church has taught us that any sin however bad may be forgiven if one repents and “plugs into”
            The salvation
            achieved by the sacrifice of Calvary
            offered to God on behalf of mankind
            once and for all in AD 33
            On Mount Calvary
            By a man (like us)
            Who was also God (unlike us)
            offered for the sins of mankind.

            Wilful deliberate Suicide is, therefore, the ultimate frustration of God’s plan for us (to be Happy with Him Forever in the Next World)

            Same old: This is the beginning; but it can’t be taken out of the context of the background of the whole of Catholic teaching:

            Such as

            ORIGINAL SIN
            ACTUAL SIN (Mortal and venial)
            THE MASS
            The 10 Commandments
            The Magisterium of the Church

            You’re obviously fairly intelligent: EDUCATE YOURSELF about the Catholic Faith.

            THEN (and only then) will you be in a position to offer meaningful criticism.

            You must be interested in what we believe, otherwise you would not take an interest in this blog. So Learn. It is NOT an easy subject.

            I hope and pray that, in time, you will come to realise the reason why you (and I) were put on this Earth:

            To Know God,
            To Love GOd
            And to serve God
            In this world
            And the next

          • Wake up England


            I should have pointed-out that Suicide is murder of oneself; our lives are not our own to do with as we please.


          • Wake up England

            Same old

            Try Googling

            Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith Declaration on Euthanasia Vatican May 5 1980

            Therein you will see all that I have tried to explain.

            Wilful Murder is VERY BAD. But the murderer can repent before he dies (or is executed). The committer of wilful suicide cannot repent which is what makes suicide worse.

            Look at Myra Hindley. Dreadful murderer (truly appalling) but died in a state of Grace.

          • same old, same old

            Your comment that I cannot have read the catechism because I wouldn’t then be making the statements I do is at the very root of your rather worrying God Complex.

            Basically you asked me to read it – which I have done many years ago and more recently, particularly the sections that relate to causing someone’s death – and then you tell me that it is impossible to disagree with once I have read it.

            Or, more relevantly, it is wrong to disagree with your bizarre interpretation of it. But if I do that then I am attacking God. So I can translate your tract into simple English. Hitler was a mass murderer and a very naughty boy. But then he killed himself and removed all chance of dying a Catholic and this was a far worse sin.

            Myra Hindley, mass murderer, conned a couple of priests and a dodgy old peer (but few else), died a Catholic and therefore saved.

            By the way, the very document you’ve just directed me to says “Intentionally causing one’s own death, or suicide, is therefore equally as wrong as murder”. Not worse than murder but equally sinful. Now I actually don’t agree with that and would say that murder is worse. But the main point is that it does not say what you claim it does.

            Do keep up.

          • Wake up England

            Much to my surprise, the whole dreadful Moors Murder business was the subject of a television programme this evening which illustrates the point. Had Myra Hindley killed herself when she was tempted to do so she would have risked going to hell for all eternity.

            Thank God she didn’t

          • same old, same old

            I watched the programme and saw absolutely nothing to suggest that the point had been illustrated. Most people that have been involved with Hindley since she has been in jail were convinced that her sole (rather than soul) concerns were initially to be able to meet up with Brady again – which was why she initially contacted Lord Longford – and when she knew that was no hope of that she turned to attempts to obtain parole. When she decided that Longford was becoming an obstruction rather than an aid to this she unceremoniously dumped him and hitched her wagon to David Astor. Even the Catholic prison chaplain at the time thought that her ‘conversion’ was a ploy aimed at obtaining release.

            So, five gruesome murders, obstruction of the investigation at all times until it became in her interests to co-operate and a manipulative attempt to convince people that she had changed. Still, she went to confession a couple of times and received communion so therefore she must be ‘saved’.

            Answer me this thought, WUE. If instead of turning to the Catholic church she had been redeemed by Allah or Buddha, would she have avoided the risk of going to hell for all eternity?

          • Wake up England

            Same old:

            The Catholic Church has always taught that some sins are worse than others. Violence against ones mother, for instance, is worse than violence against a stranger.

            Murder is one of the sins “Crying out to Heaven for Vengeance”

            The Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith’s 1980 document about Euthanasia (airily dismissed by you) says that suicide and murder are equal in gravity; and so objectively, they are. BUT in the case of suicide there is usually no time for repentance. I suppose, for the sake of argument, that someone who throws themselves off a high building and repents of his sin before he hits the bottom would be in the same moral boat as a repentant murderer. But someone who shot herself would have no time for this theoretical opportunity.

            The point I make about suicide being worse than murder is in general terms taught and upheld by the Church.

            It is very wrong to speculate uncharitably about the state of Myra Hindley’s soul when she died. The Catholic Church teaches us to Hope and to be Charitable. I’m afraid your comments evince neither of these virtues.

            As for your last question: all souls who are redeemed are saved from Original and Actual sin by the Sacrifice of Jesus on Calvary. So the devout Pagan (who has not had the benefit of knowing about Our Lord and his Church) may well be redeemed because he has followed his conscience and done what he deemed to be right. Nevertheless it is the sacrifice of Calvary which saves him. this is what is meant by there being “No Salvation Outside of the Church”

            Myra Hindley was, I think, born a Catholic; therefore had she become a Muslim or a Buddhist she would have committed the sin of Apostasy.

            I hope all good Muslims and Buddhists go to heaven. This is the will of God for all men and women; but the means of getting there are supplied through Jesus’ sacrifice on behalf of us all (continued in the Mass).

          • same old, same old

            I didn’t ‘dismiss’ the document you pointed me towards (airily or otherwise). Instead I read and reread it very carefully and decided that I disagreed with it. However, the main point is that it clearly disagrees with you and nowhere does it claim or even hint that suicide is worse than murder. Indeed what it is basically saying is that suicide IS murder and therefore the two are indistinguishable to all intents and purposes.

            I haven’t chosen some random and obscure teaching of the church to point out that you have it wrong, it is the very document that you selected yourself. If that’s not enough then the catechism itself contradicts your claim: “We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.”

            Two of the phrases you use indicate just how your worldview become incredibly dangerous. Firstly, I thought that Catholicism was a faith or belief rather than a congenital condition – so how Myra Hindley or anybody else could have been “born a Catholic” is beyond me.

            But that’s as nothing compared to the insidious claim that there is “No Salvation Outside of the Church”. With all the other things you have said can I make an analogy without, I hope, misrepresenting your case?

            There are many, many non-Catholics in this world who have carried out tremendous deeds and done so selflessly. Some of them may even have been “born a Catholic” but encountered things within the Church with which they simply cannot support. Apparently they are therefore condemned once they die to some fiery furnace or other such scare story.

            On the other hand, Robert Mugabe could commit genocide and other atrocities, could then die a Catholic and hence he would be ‘redeemed’ and ‘saved’.

            I think not.

          • Wake up England

            The Church has always taught that Suicide is worse than murder because there is no time (usually) to seek God’s forgiveness (Vide supra)

            This is implicit in all Catholic teaching: Murder and Despair are grave. A Christian’s first duty is to work out his own salvation. Suicide frustrates God’s plan with (usually) no hope of divine forgiveness. This is why Suicide is even worse than Murder. I keep repeating Church teaching – you keep ignoring it.

            The Church indeed nowadays publicly prays for the souls of Suicides. It used not to: they were denied Christian burial. It also prays for repentant murderers. This is does not demonstrate that Murder and Suicide are equal in their sinfulness.

            I repeat the Church has always held suicide as even worse than murder.

            Making the silly point-scoring comment about “Born a Catholic” is semantic and tiresome. YES you win. Myra Hindley was born into Original Sin (like you) and became a Catholic (typically) less than a week later when she was baptised.

            The Church’s teaching is that there is no salvation outside of Her. I believe it solely because the Church teaches me that it is so. If you think it’s insidious then that’s up to you. It is, nevertheless, Catholic Dogma.

            I have said above that people of other faiths and beliefs can (according to Church teaching) go to Heaven. You’re completely ignoring what I wrote above. The Church certainly does not teach that they’re condemned into a Fiery Furnace; and your suggestion that it does is ridiculous and deliberately misinterpreting what I wrote above.

            If Robert Mugabe dies in a state of Grace God has promised him Heaven. He would still have to be punished for his sins in this world, or the next before being admitted to Heaven (UNLESS HE HAD A PLENARY INDULGENCE, OF COURSE).

          • Same old, same old

            You claim that you keep repeating Church teaching and that I keep ignoring it. Actually you do no such thing. What you do keep doing is making a statement for which you have not been able to find any evidence and which are contradicted both by the document you suggested I read and by the catechism itself. Simply restating something constantly with nothing to back it up is not an argument it’s a diatribe.

            I have read carefully what you say about people of other faiths being allowed into heaven and I presume you mean that’s true as long as they are not of that faith at the time of their death – unless they’re in the rare case of never having encountered the concept of catholicism. So commit genocide, commit the worst of war crimes and make a deathbed conversion or act of contrition and you’re saved, lead an almost blameless life as a Jew, a Muslim or even an atheist and you’re not saved. Please tell me which bit of that I’ve got wrong. But before you accuse me of anti-catholicism then please realise that a devout Muslim would tell you the same in reverse.

            Mugabe could indeed have a plenary indulgence (he can certainly afford it) but only so long as he limits himself to one a day.

  • Jadis

    “a wooden chalice made from a shipwreck”

    Dark night hath come down on this rough spoken world
    and the banners of darkness are boldly unfurled
    And the tempest tossed Church – all her eyes are on thee
    They look to thy shining
    Sweet Star of the Sea

  • tro

    Homosexual activists bully schools into acceding to their demands under the pretext of protecting “gay” pupils from ‘bullying’.

    Coming soon to a school near you:

  • Lynda

    Courage and Encourage set up by Fr Garvey RIP help people who have such disordered attractions in the proper and moral way, and of course, this is in keeping with the Faith. And unless a person is behaving in an overt manner, how would anyone else know he has been attracted to persons of the same sex? People are not generally aware of any temptations that others have to sin in word, thought, deed or omission (thankfully). Perhaps effeminate affectation or behaviour in men is what is being referred to. This has increased for various reasons including contamination of oestrogens, etc. (from, for example, chemical contraceptives/abortifacients in the water supply. A very high proportion of those who say they are attracted to members of the same sex seem to have been sexually abused as children. That is my experience, and that of very many I have spoken to about this.

  • ms Catholic state

    Horrific bullying of Christians by Canadian pro-gay fanatics elevates gays above everyone else.

  • An interesting article was published on LifeSiteNews in regards to this on Tuesday, July 9. Peter Baklinski writes from Manitoba and begins his article by saying: “In a bid to become Canada’s most LGBTQ-influenced school system, Manitoba’s NDP Ministry of Education has announced development of a new “provincial code of conduct” — added on top of its proposed anti-bullying legislation — that critics say will effectively silence any student voice dissenting from the gay agenda.”

    Of course, no news emanating from Canada about the promotion of homosexuality now has the power to shock. Even when in the same bulletin we read another article from a correspondent, Patrick B Craine, in Toronto which begins: “A top-ranking education official and appointee of Premier Kathleen Wynne has been charged with making and distributing child pornography. Dr. Benjamin Levin, 61, served as Ontario’s deputy minister of education from 2004 to 2009 and worked under Wynne, Ontario’s first openly homosexual premier, while she developed the controversial “inclusive education” strategy and a radical new sex ed program.”


  • Wake up England

    not for publication

    Pretty Please


  • Wake up England

    When asked not to

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