Pope Francis appears to criticise the Medjugorje visionaries claim to receive daily messages from Our Lady

During a recent homily at one of his daily Masses at St Martha’s Pope Francis appears to criticise the  Medjugorje visionaries claim to receive daily messages from Our Lady, ‘“But I know a visionary, who receives letters from Our Lady, messages from Our Lady”. And the Pope commented: “But, look, Our Lady is the Mother of everyone! And she loves all of us. She is not a postmaster, sending messages every day.”

Pope Francis’ criticism was part of his more general critique of a curiosity that seeks after miracles:

‘The Kingdom of God is among us: do not seek strange things, do not seek novelties with this worldly curiosity. Let us allow the Spirit to lead us forward in that wisdom, which is like a soft breeze. This is the Spirit of the Kingdom of God, of which Jesus speaks. So be it.”

In the Gospel, the Pope underlined, “we find ourselves before another spirit, contrary to the wisdom of God: the spirit of curiosity”.

“And when we want to be the masters of the projects of God, of the future, of things, to know everything, to have everything in hand… the Pharisees asked Jesus, ‘When will the Kingdom of God come?’ Curious! They wanted to know the date, the day… The spirit of curiosity distances us from the Spirit of wisdom because all that interests us is the details, the news, the little stories of the day. Oh, how will this come about? It is the how: it is the spirit of the how! And the spirit of curiosity is not a good spirit. It is the spirit of dispersion, of distancing oneself from God, the spirit of talking too much. And Jesus also tells us something interesting: this spirit of curiosity, which is worldly, leads us to confusion.”

Curiosity, the Pope continued, impels us to want to feel that the Lord is here or rather there, or leads us to say: “But I know a visionary, who receives letters from Our Lady, messages from Our Lady”. And the Pope commented: “But, look, Our Lady is the Mother of everyone! And she loves all of us. She is not a postmaster, sending messages every day.”

Such responses to these situations, he affirmed, “distance us from the Gospel, from the Holy Spirit, from peace and wisdom, from the glory of God, from the beauty of God.”

“Jesus says that the Kingdom of God does not come in a way that attracts attention: it comes by wisdom.”

“ ‘The Kingdom of God is among you,’ said Jesus, and it is this action of the Holy Spirit, which gives us wisdom and peace. The Kingdom of God does not come in (a state of) confusion, just as God did not speak to the prophet Elijah in the wind, in the storm (but) he spoke in the soft breeze, the breeze of wisdom.”

“Saint Teresa of the Child Jesus would say that she had always to stop herself before the spirit of curiosity,” he said. “When she spoke with another sister and this sister was telling a story about the family, about people, sometimes the subject would change, and she would want to know the end of the story. But she felt that this was not the spirit of God, because it was a spirit of dispersion, of curiosity.

Protect the Pope comment: When the Holy Father’s criticism is set in the context of Archbishop Müller’s directive to the US Church via the Apostolic Nuncio that the faithful must not attend meetings that accept the authenticity of the Medjugorje apparitions it appears that the Holy See is gradually preparing the faithful for the report of the special commission set up to investigate the truth, or otherwise, of the alleged Marian apparitions of Medjugorje.

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/11/14/pope:_the_spirit_of_curiosity_distances_one_from_god/en1-746498

96 comments to Pope Francis appears to criticise the Medjugorje visionaries claim to receive daily messages from Our Lady

  • Andrzej

    Yes, Medjugorje is really the main problem of the Church today…

  • Pat

    The tragedy is that even a statement from the Holy See stating that the non-supernaturality of Medjugorje has been proven won’t deter many Catholics. I remember when the CDF and Southwark Archdiocese condemned the ‘Divine Innocence’ sect, and the writings of the founder of that sect, alleged ‘seer’ Patricia de Menezes http://www.rcsouthwark.co.uk/statement_cdi_2.html the followers simply dismissed the declaration and carried on business as usual, and the nonsense still goes on to this day. False apparitions are Satan’s great method of separating people from the Church and disobeying legitimate authority. The ‘seers’ always do very nicely financially out of these scams. Read The Immaculate Deception by Jim Gallagher about the phoney Irish ‘seer’ Christina Gallagher. http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Immaculate-Deception-Christine-Gallaghers/dp/1907162011 Truly, truly shocking.

    • Michael Petek

      Suppose that the Holy See issues a statement that the non-supernaturality of Medjugorje has been proven. There are only two ways in which this could be supportable in reason:

      (1) Either the apparitions clearly and certainly, and constantly, contradict the deposit of faith and morals, in which case the Holy Father should so state.

      (2) Alternatively, each and every one of the visionaries is unworthy of belief, in which case the Holy Father should so state and rely on his sovereign immunity to prevent any of them from suing him in defamation.

      • Pat

        No, once again, YOU are laying down the law as to the criteria for determining the genuineness or otherwise of these alleged apparitions, and using specific criteria which have certainly not been given by the CDF. The CDF has already laid down norms in its 1978 document to BISHOPS (not benefit advisers) on the discernment of alleged apparitions. The CDF neither consulted you, nor needed to consult you. Contrary to what you may believe about yourself, you have no legislative position in the Church, I wish you would accept that. Any other position is simply delusional.

        If the Holy See issues a statement that the non-supernaturality of Medjugorje is proven, then I am confident that it will give valid reasons in support of that statement.

        Has any genuine seer or mystic ever tried to sue the Holy Father? The mere fact that you even mention such a ridiculous scenario reveals your alarming mindset. But sadly, this is the end game of situations like this. Obedience to the sect trumps obedience to the Church.

        • Wake up England

          Pat:

          Who is your reply aimed at?

        • Michael Petek

          The criteria have indeed been laid down. Presumptiomn stands in favour of “non constat de supernaturalitate”. Either of the other two alternatives requires moral certainty, or at least high probability.

          If the Holy See issues a statement that the non-supernaturality of Medjugorje is proven, then as a matter of justice and fairness it must give a reasoned judgement in support of that statement, just as civil courts do. The Holy Father’s sovereign immunity protects him against any possibility of being successfully sued in the civil courts should he say what you seem to believe to be true, that every one of the visionaries is a liar and a chiseler.

      • Nicolas Bellord

        Michael: I doubt if any court in the world would be prepared to rule on whether a vision was true or false in an action for defamation.

        • Michael Petek

          So do I. My point is that,if the Holy Father were to brand any of the visionaries as a fraudster, he could claim sovereign immunity against a lawsuit in defamation. If he were to do so, I should expect the Bosnian police to investigate further.

  • Michael Petek

    That puts paid to Fatima for a start. Unless the Holy Father intends us to understand that private revelations, to be authentic, must conform to the wisdom of Our Lady, which is found in a Gospel, three letters and the book of Revelation, all of which could not have been written as they were save by the man who lived with her as her son for the first years of his Apostolic ministry.

  • Pat

    Mmm. Sense of deja vu here. But what the Holy Father has said doesn’t put paid to Fatima, especially since the Pope has consecrated his Papacy to Our Lady of Fatima and also recently renewed the Consecration of the World to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in front of the original statue from Fatima. The Fatima apparitions also occurred six times over as many months, and the messages of Our Lady were relatively brief, so I don’t see how Fatima could fit the Pope’s reference to people craving constant ‘messages’ from ‘Our Lady’. I don’t think he would be trying to undermine Fatima somehow.

    Now let me see, what other alleged apparition of Our Lady has had non-stop interminable ‘messages’ for the last 30-odd years? I wonder . . .

    Watch this story closely, readers. The ‘signs and wonders’ brigade will really start to show their true colours now, mark my words.

    • Michael Petek

      The same principle applies to Fatima as to Medjugorje. Test the spirits according to the wisdom of St John, which he undoubtedly received through Our Lady.

  • Pat

    “The same principle applies to Fatima as to Medjugorje” – yes Michael, the same principle and the same method of discernment. Not through YOU or any filter YOU choose to put on it, but through what the CDF stated in its 1996 document, published by the CDF and placed in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, the official organ of the Holy See, and in L’Osservatore Romano of 4th December 1996:-

    “Regarding the circulation of texts of alleged private revelations, the Congregation states: The interpretation given by some individuals to a decision approved by Paul VI on 14th October 1966 and promulgated on 15 November of that year, in virtue of which writings and messages resulting from alleged revelations could be freely circulated in the Church, is absolutely groundless. This decision actually referred to the “abolition of the Index of Forbidden Books” and determined that after the relevant censures were lifted the moral obligation still remained of not circulating or reading those writings which endanger faith and morals. It should be recalled however, that with regard to the circulation of texts of alleged private revelations, canon 823#1 of the current Code remains in force: “the Pastors of the Church have the …. right to demand that writings to be published by the Christian faithful which touch upon faith or morals be submitted to their judgement”. Alleged supernatural revelations and writings concerning them are submitted in first instance to the judgement of the diocesan Bishop, and in particular cases, to the judgement of the Episcopal Conference and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.”

    I don’t see your name figuring in that statement. Test the spirits according to what the Church has decreed Michael, not your own fancies.

    • Michael B Rooke

      @Pat
      Some superb posts. Thank you.

      There is a tendency for some not to Protect the Pope but the opposite. They may not intend to be trolls but the effect of promoting division in the Church has the same effect.

      Pope Francis said
      “The devil takes advantage of everything in order to divide us! He says: “I do not want to speak ill but…” and then the division begins. No, this is not good because it does not do anything but bring division. Build friendship between yourselves, family life, love among you”

      http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/speeches/2013/october/documents/papa-francesco_20131004_monache-assisi_en.html

      “And in this moment the enemy, the devil, comes, often disguised as an angel, and slyly speaks his word to us. Do not listen to him! Let us follow Jesus! We accompany, we follow Jesus, but above all we know that he accompanies us and carries us on his shoulders. This is our joy, this is the hope that we must bring to this world. Please do not let yourselves be robbed of hope! Do not let hope be stolen! The hope that Jesus gives us.”

      http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/homilies/2013/documents/papa-francesco_20130324_palme_en.html

      • Pat

        Yes Michael B Rooke,
        I know what you mean, the hypocrisy is overwhelming. People come on here and pontificate about other’s sins of disobedience to Church teaching, then when it suits them, they overthrow legitimate authority in favour of their own ‘wisdom’. The devil certainly knows and exploits all our weaknesses, doesn’t he?

    • Michael Petek

      We’re to test the spirits according to the word of God.

      • Pat

        Well that’s not what the CDF statement I posted at 8:48 says. It makes it very clear that we must be obedient to the various levels of legitimate ecclesiastical authority in such matters. You’re beginning to sound like a protestant.

        • Michael Petek

          Obedience is due only to directions of a practical nature. If the Church were to order the faithful not to heed or disseminate private revelations (even if authentic) then the Church has to be obeyed, since her judgement does not have to be correct for such a directive to be binding.

          If she applies the wrong test of the spirits, her judgement arising from that test need not be followed.

          • Pat

            In other words, you, and not the Church, will always be the final arbiter where Medjugorje is concerned. So be it, Michael. God bless you.

      • Michael B Rooke

        @Michael Petek

        AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM
        ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X ON THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION
        FEBRUARY 2, 1904
        “Then, again, no sooner had Pius IX. proclaimed as a dogma of Catholic faith the exemption of Mary from the original stain, than the Virgin herself began in Lourdes those wonderful manifestations, followed by the vast and magnificent movements which have produced those two temples dedicated to the Immaculate Mother, where the prodigies which still continue to take place through her intercession furnish splendid arguments against the incredulity of our days.”
        http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10imcon.htm

        ON HIS SACERDOTAL JUBILEE
        Quinquagesimo Ante
        Encyclical of Pope Pius XI promulgated on December 23, 1929.

        For these conventions were concluded in the seventy-fifth year after the definition of the Immaculate Conception. They were signed on the exact day on which, a few years later, the Blessed Virgin appeared in the grotto at Lourdes. They seemed, therefore, to be taken under the special protection of the Mother of God. Having been, moreover, ratified on the Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, they seemed to bear the countersign of His approval. And indeed, if all the points agreed upon are conscientiously and faithfully carried out-as there is reason to hope they will be-there is no doubt that the agreement will bring the best results to the Catholic cause, to Our Fatherland, and to all the human family.
        http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11QUINQ.HTM
        .
        On the Rosary
        INGRAVESCENTIBUS MALIS
        ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS Xl ON THE ROSARY SEPTEMBER 29, 1937

        “16. This mystic crown, then, not only is found in and glides through the hands of the poor, but it also is honored by citizens of every social rank. And We do not wish here to pass over in silence the fact that the Blessed Virgin herself, even in our times, has solicitously recommended this manner of prayer, when she appeared and taught it to the innocent girl in the Grotto of Lourdes.”
        http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11GRAVE.HTM

        LE PELERINAGE DE LOURDES
        ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII WARNING AGAINST MATERIALISM ON THE CENTENARY OF THE APPARITIONS AT LOURDES JULY 2, 1957

        19. In 1892 Leo XIII granted the proper Office and Mass of the feast “In apparitione Beatae Mariae Virginis Immaculatae,” which his successor was to extend to the Universal Church a short time later. Henceforth the ancient appeal of the Scriptures was to have a new application: “Arise, my love, my beautiful one, and come. My dove in the clefts of the rock, in the hollow place of the wall. . .”[7]

        20. Near the end of his life, this great Pontiff decided to install and bless a reproduction of the grotto of Massabielle in the Vatican gardens, and in those days his voice rose to the Virgin of Lourdes in an ardent and trusting prayer: “In her power may the Virgin Mother, who once cooperated through her love with the birth of the faithful into the Church, now be the means and guardian of our salvation; may she return the tranquillity of peace to troubled souls; may she hasten the return of Jesus Christ in private and public life.”[8]

        http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12PELER.HTM

        SACERDOTII NOSTRI PRIMORDIA
        Encyclical of Pope John XXIII On August 1, 1959
        116. The things that were done and said by this holy priest*, who was raised to the honors of the Heavenly Saints and whose 100th anniversary We are commemorating, cast a kind of heavenly light beforehand over the supernatural truths which were made known to the innocent girl at the grotto of Lourdes. For this man had such great devotion to the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mother of God that in 1836 he dedicated his parish church to Mary Conceived Without Sin and greeted the infallible definition of this truth as Catholic dogma in 1854 with the greatest joy and reverence.[103]

        *St. John M. Vianney
        http://www.papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23sacer.htm

        APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION FOR THE RIGHT ORDERING AND DEVELOPMENT OF DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
        MARIALIS CULTUS
        OF HIS HOLINESS PAUL VI, FEBRUARY 2, 1974

        8. The restored Roman Calendar gives particular prominence to the celebrations listed above, but it also includes other kinds of commemorations connected with local devotions and which have acquired a wider popularity and interest (e.g., February 11, Our Lady of Lourdes; August 5, the Dedication of the Basilica of St. Mary Major).
        http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6marial.htm

        SAECULO EXEUNTE OCTAVO
        Encyclical of His Holiness Pope Pius XII On the Eighth Centenary of the Independence of Portugal on June 13, 1940
        17. This holy and most urgent intention should have the principal place in the prayers of each priest. Those who have been called to the sacred orders of the contemplative life are to pray for this special intention, and the faithful, when reciting the rosary so highly commended by the Blessed Virgin at Fatima, should entreat this same Virgin to intercede in favor of this divine vocation in order that the missions will flourish.
        http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SAECU.HTM

        AD CAELI REGINAM
        ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON PROCLAIMING THE QUEENSHIP OF MARY OCTOBER 11, 1954
        We addressed to the people of Portugal, when the miraculous image of the Virgin Mary which is venerated at Fatima was being crowned with a golden diadem.[3] We Ourselves called this the heralding of the “sovereignty” of Mary.[4]
        http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12CAELI.HTM

        THE GREAT SIGN
        Signum Magnum
        Letter of His Holiness Paul VI TO THE CATHOLIC BISHOPS OF THE WORLD
        May 13, 1967
        On the occasion of the religious ceremonies which are taking place at this time in honor of the Virgin Mother of God in Fatima, Portugal, where she is venerated by countless numbers of the faithful for her motherly and compassionate heart,[6] we wish to call the attention of all sons of the Church once more to the indissoluble link between the spiritual motherhood of Mary, so amply illustrated in the (council’s) Dogmatic Constitution on the Church[7] and the duties of redeemed men toward her, the Mother of the Church.

        Once it is acknowledged, by virtue of the numerous testimonies offered by the sacred texts and by the holy Fathers and remembered in the constitution mentioned above, that “Mary, the Mother of God and Mother of the Redeemer”[8] has been “united to Him by a close and indissoluble tie”[9] and that she has a most singular role in “the mystery of the Incarnate Word and of the Mystical Body,”[10] that is to say, in “the economy of salvation,”[1]l it appears evident that the Virgin is “rightly honored by the Church with a special veneration,[12] particularly liturgical,”[13] not only as “the most holy Mother of God, who took part in the mysteries of Christ,”[14] but also “as the Mother of the Church.”[15]
        http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6great.htm

        IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
        REDEMPTORIS MATER
        On the Blessed Virgin Mary
        in the life of the Pilgrim Church
        This is the message of centers like Guadalupe, Lourdes, Fatima and the others situated in the various countries.
        Given in Rome, at Saint Peter’s, on March 25, the Solemnity of the Annunciation of the Lord, in the year 1987, the ninth of my Pontificate.
        http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater_en.html

        CONGREGATION
        FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
        THE MESSAGE
        OF FATIMA

        JosephCard. Ratzinger
        Prefect of the Congregation
        for the Doctrine of the Faith

        http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

  • Augustine

    Does anyone know how many messages are the visionaries of Medjugorje are supposed to have received – compared to Fatima or Lourdes?

    • Pat

      Augustine,
      The Bishop of Mostar answers your question on his website: http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=101

      “Updated in 2007 following the Conferences held in Split on 25 May 2002 and at St. Patrick’s Pontifical College at Maynooth, Ireland, on 17 February 2004″ (So bear in mind the ‘apparition’ figures will be even higher now!)

      “The Madonna has been presumably “appearing” on a regular basis and at one and the same time, even if one of the “seers” is in America, another “visionary” in Herzegovina, a third in Italy or a fourth in Maynooth. Adding all this up together makes for 37,238 “apparitions” up till now. Please don’t ask me about the accuracy of these statistics, because a thousand “apparitions” more or less, have no role to play here! The hierarchical Church at various levels: diocesan, national and Holy See, hasn’t accepted a single apparition as authentic. Let us now compare Medjugorje to two recognized Marian shrines:

      At Lourdes in 1858, the Madonna appeared as the “Immaculate Conception”, 18 times to Bernadette. The Church accepted these apparitions and four years afterwards declared them authentic, in 1862.

      At Fatima the Madonna appeared in 1917 as “Our Lady of the Rosary” 6 times to the ten year old shepherd children Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta. 13 years later, in 1930, the Church accepted these apparitions as authentic.

      Three of the Medjugorje “seers”, who say they have daily “apparitions”, live most of the time outside of Medjugorje, while the remaining three that live in Medjugorje supposedly have only one “apparition” a year, with the exception of one of them who also has a monthly “apparition”.”

      • Augustine

        Thank you. So

        Medjugorje = 37,238+

        Lourdes = 18

        Fatima = 6

      • Augustine

        I have heard some devotees of Medjugorje claim that no judgement can be made by the Vatican of Medjugorje while the alleged apparitions continue.

        I wonder if the visionaries are under the same misapprehension.

        This could account for the continuation of the alleged apparitions.

        • Pat

          Augustine,
          Medj devotees can claim what they like, and as we have seen on this thread, often do! But the Vatican can certainly state that the non-supernaturality is proven before any alleged apparition has ended, there is no question of that.
          E Michael Jones has made some very good points about the alleged Medjugorje visionaries in his book: The Medjugorje Deception: Queen of Peace, Ethnic Cleansing, Ruined Lives. Available here:- http://www.culturewars.com/medj.htm

  • Augustine

    Does anyone know how many messages the visionaries of Medjugorje are supposed to have received – compared to Fatima or Lourdes?

  • Pope Francis is Not Anti-Medjugorje

    Pope Francis is warning us about “false messiahs” and the dangers of having a “spirit of curiosity” recently (he is not saying the Medjugorje visionaries are “false messiahs” and he is not making negative comments about the Medjugorje Marian apparitions).

    Once again, many people are being tempted to interpret the Holy Father’s remarks in light of their own personal misunderstandings about Medjugorje.

    If you look carefully at the text of Pope Francis’ recent comments (on Nov. 14 and Nov. 17), he is preparing us for a POSITIVE statement from the Vatican regarding Medjugorje.

    Think about what will happen when the Vatican makes an official, positive statement regarding Medjugorje. There will be a high risk of chaos because marginal Catholics (who don’t fully understand Catholic theology) will not only RUSH to see what Medjugorje is all about, but their behavior will also lift the “status” of the visionaries to something like “ultra-celebrities.” Also, those of us who are level-headed supporters of the authenticity of the Medjugorje Marian apparitions may be tempted to react in a hyperactive manner. As a result, Pope Francis is merely warning us – preparing us – to react appropriately when the positive news comes out.

    Because the apparitions are still ongoing, the Church will not likely break its precedent for declaring the apparitions to be supernatural. What is likely to occur is some middle-ground ruling that encourages people to embrace the messages of Our Lady while at the same time admonishing people for treating the visionaries as celebrities and admonishing people not to approach the apparitions with, as Pope Francis said, a “spirit of curiosity, which is worldly, leads us to confusion.”

    Here is a key passage from the Holy Father’s comments on Nov. 14 as reported by Vatican Radio:

    “Curiosity, the Pope continued, impels us to want to feel that the Lord is here or rather there, or leads us to say: ‘But I know a visionary, who receives letters from Our Lady, messages from Our Lady’. And the Pope commented: ‘But, look, Our Lady is the Mother of everyone! And she loves all of us. She is not a postmaster, sending messages every day.’”

    Many anti-Medjugorje people are interpreting that statement as if the Pope is making a negative comment about Medjugorje (because the visionaries receive(d) messages daily and often write them down immediately after the vision). The thing is this. The Holy Father is not making a negative comment about Medjugorje… He is making a negative comment about the people who – after the positive ruling comes out – will RUSH to approach Medjugorje with a cult-like fervor.

    Here is my interpretation of those comments by the Holy Father: Yes, you may know a visionary who receives messages from Our Lady, but don’t put THE VISIONARY on a pedestal (put MARY on the pedestal). And because Our Lady is the Mother of EVERYONE, the visionaries are NOT to be worshiped in a cult-like manner or venerated like canonized saints after the Vatican issues a positive statement about Medjugorje.

    When Pope Francis says that Our Lady “is not a postmaster, sending messages every day,” he is merely admonishing us not to perceive the visionaries as somehow having “special access” to the Blessed Virgin Mary… because we ALL have “special access” to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

    The recent comments by Pope Francis are warning us not to place undue attention on the visionaries… because that is EXACTLY what is going to happen when the positive news is issued by the Vatican and marginal Catholics rush like crazy to see what it’s all about.

    Just as an FYI to people who are skeptical about the visionaries writing down the messages they receive from Mary… Did you know that Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen took his television scripts with him to his holy hours in Eucharistic Adoration and REVISED his scripts in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament as Jesus spoke to him about how to make changes to the script?

    Also, did you know that Pope John Paul II would take a notebook with him when he went before the Blessed Sacrament in Eucharistic Adoration? Pope John Paul II took notes about what Jesus was saying to him during Eucharistic Adoration and wrote those messages in his notebook. I’m not equating the visionaries to Archbishop Fulton J Sheen and Pope John Paul II… I’m just sayin’ that Sheen and JP II (as well as the visionaries of Medjugorje) do not perceive Mary and Jesus as “postmasters” (and neither should any of us perceive Jesus and Mary as “postmasters”).

    The “postmaster” comment by Pope Francis was an admonishment about “taking grace for granted.” None of us knows when God will decide to bestow His graces upon us, including Archbishop Sheen, John Paul II, the visionaries, and you and me. That’s what the “postmaster” comment was all about: don’t expect to receive graces as if the postmaster is going to arrive at your door on a regular basis and enable you to “sense and perceive” messages from Jesus and Mary just because you EXPECT to receive those graces. (And the Medjugorje visionaries will be the first to tell you that their visions could cease at any time.)

    At this time every year (right before the beginning of Advent and before we begin the new “liturgical year”), the Mass readings focus on the second coming of Christ and the end of the current world. In his Angelus address on Nov. 17, Pope Francis also made some remarks that many anti-Medjugorje people are misinterpreting as pertaining to the visionaries.

    Here is a key passage from the Holy Father’s Nov. 17 comments as reported by Vatican Radio:

    “’Firstly, do not be taken in by false messiahs and don’t be paralysed by fear. Secondly, live this time of waiting as a time of witness and perseverance.’ He told the faithful that this message from Jesus is just as valid in our present time and encourages us to show ‘discernment.’ ‘Nowadays,’ he continued, ‘there are many false saviours who try to substitute Jesus, leaders in this world, fake saints and personalities who wish to influence the hearts and minds of people, especially the young.’ But Jesus warns us, said the Pope: ‘Don’t follow them.’ At the same time, Jesus also helps us not to be afraid when faced with ‘wars, revolutions and natural disasters.’”

    I believe this is a “preparatory admonishment” by Pope Francis to people who are going to place extraordinary emphasis on interpreting the “Medjugorje secrets” and forecasting their unfolding as they relate to “the end of the current world.” This isn’t a problem today… but when the Vatican rules in a positive manner about Medjugorje, lots of people are going to become OBSESSED about the secrets and MANY people will be vulnerable to becoming intense followers of Person X or Person Z (people who will lead the faithful astray either through outright deception or through utter cluelessness on their own part).

    There will be a lot of charlatans coming out of the woodwork after the Vatican rules positively on Medjugorje, and the Nov. 17 comments by Pope Francis are a preparatory warning not to become attracted to these charlatans, who will appear as “false messiahs” because they will offer a deceptive “way out of the chastisements” to those who will be “paralysed by fear” when the secrets begin to unfold.

  • Jean Marcheschi

    Interesting that someone can read the Pope’s words and determine who or what he was speaking about. It sounds like gossip and bad rumors to me and strangely does not meet the criteria of what is occuring with the visionaries in Medjugorje.. Sometimes we need to hear his words like we read scripture. It should not be altered to fit one’s own heart of misconception. That is ungodly.

  • Pat

    Re: Chris T Smith’s comment – and please note this – she states that she is one of the “level-headed supporters of the authenticity of the Medjugorje Marian apparitions”. if this is indeed the case, then I would hate to meet some of the wilder elements of Medjugorism, for, despite saying she is ‘level-headed’ she makes the following claims on her website (go to the link on her avatar):- “HEAVEN, HELL and PURGATORY – Here’s the thing. I’m a serious researcher and scientist, however, I have had hundreds of paranormal experiences. I have a “guardian angel” who has taken me on “tours” of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory, and I write about these experiences in the book. I’m not kidding about these experiences, which involve vivid and real encounters with supernatural phenomena. I know most people will not believe me, but the descriptions of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory in my book are based on real experiences”. Enough said.

    • Augustine

      I’m afraid that many good people will be very disappointed when the Vatican’s judgement on Medjugorje is finally published.

      There are many thousands of alleged apparitions reported to the Vatican. Very few of these are judged to be authentic.

      We should also remember that the American founders of certain false religions that have sprung up in the last 150 years also claimed to have had apparitions.

  • Sandra

    If you can somehow interpret the Pope’s referring to Mary giving daily messages as anything other than a direct refuting of Medjugorje you are simply not living in the world of reason. While he may not be referring only to the Medjugorje claims, he is saying that Mary does not give out daily messages. If you say he will give a positive judgement then I guess he will have to back track on his comment of Mary not being a postmaster. How would that make any sense?

    Now I know supporters will go on and on about this conversion or that conversion because of Medjugorje, but the true test of the conversions will be when all the fantastic is stripped away and we are left with silence and in solitude. Only then are we forced to dig deep into our hearts and through nothing other than faith give ourselves over completely to that which we cannot see, smell, feel, taste or hear. That is true faith and that is the faith that Jesus taught us. He told us not to look for signs and wonders and to watch out for those lead us to look for them. I pray for everyone who has been caught up in this and for the unity of the Church not to be broken should a negative judgement be given.

  • Pat

    Good points Sandra. But I think the Church will need to be very pro-active in helping Catholics over this, after a negative verdict. Almost like the exit counselling given to people who have left cults. They will need to be helped to understand how all this happened, and clearly shown the difference between the official ecclesiastical positions, which they should have followed, as opposed to the propaganda peddled by people with no authority in the matter (often with a vested interest) which they should have steered clear of. With proper explanation, I’m sure most people of good will would get over it, although I’m sure it will profoundly disturb those who have based their whole spiritual life on it. As we have seen, there are those who will always put the cult before the authority of the Church, using any sophistry to keep the show on the road.

  • Elijah

    Excellent points Sandra! This is true for all of us who have had some powerful conversion experience. When our faith is really put to the test and we have nothing to hang on to except…faith…then we are truly living seriously the graces of our conversion.
    A very good website on Medjugorje:
    http://www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/home.html

  • Dianne

    I have been to medjugorje. I have first hand witnessed miracles. I have first hand witnessed supernatural happenings that science would not be able to explain. And I wasn’t the only one! There is also a certain “feeling” that is only experienced if you go to Medjugorje. Anyone here who says anything negative about Medjugorje without having been there, is no one to be listened to, because they have no experience with the place. Pope John Paul II already accepted Medjugorje as true so it doesn’t matter if Pope Frances does not. God Bless

  • Pat

    Dianne,
    You are placing your subjective experiences against the official declarations of the Church to date in this matter, and you are believing falsehoods that have been told to you by Medjugorje propagandists with no authority in this matter. You need to re-assess your situation. Do you want to be a Catholic, or do you want to follow a sect?
    Also, you say that Pope John Paul II ‘accepted Medjugorje as true’ and there were indeed many statements on pro-Medjugorje sites alleging that this was the case, but you shouldn’t believe them. In reality, Cardinal Ratzinger, before he became Pope Benedict, publicly stated the following, which is reported on the Bishop of Mostar’s official website:- “In 1998, when a certain German gathered various statements which were supposedly made by the Pope and the Cardinal Prefect, and then forwarded them to the Vatican in the form of a memorandum, the Cardinal responded in writing on 22 July 1998: “The only thing I can say regarding statements on Medjugorje ascribed to the Holy Father and myself is that they are complete invention” – frei erfunden.” http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=101#_ftn27 There you have it. Everything ascribed to Pope John Paul II by Medjugorje enthusiasts was a ‘complete invention’.
    You are not qualified to recognise what is, and what isn’t, supernatural. This is why Jesus Christ instituted a hierarchical Church. Listen to it and obey it. Sister Lucia of Fatima, a genuine seer, always humbly submitted to the Church. And yet you seem to place yourself above it, which is very worrying. Please pray and reconsider your position.

  • Dianne

    Pat:
    You need to get out and read more instead of being so closed minded. Here’s some news for you. http://www.medjugorje.org/pope.htm The propagandist website you sent me was so biased it isn’t funny. I can’t read Croatian but I got pretty good at saying prayers in Croatia while I was in Medjugorje. Pope John Paul II loved Medjugorje and if I wanted to know what he said I wouldn’t ask Ratzinger I’d ask the Pope. I don’t have to believe what someone “told me”, and they are not “falsehoods”, because I saw things with my own eyes and experienced things with my own mind and body. You stated, “You are not qualified to recognize what is and what isn’t supernatural.” Oh Please…Being Catholic doesn’t mean that I can’t say I saw an Angel unless I get the approval of the Pope. If I see and “Angel”, a “host” above the sun, the sun spinning(beautiful colors I might ad)With my own eyes…well that’s all I need to render something “Supernatural.” I don’t need people like you telling me I didn’t see anything supernatural just because you didn’t see it too. In Medjugorje there are so many wonderful sights and happenings all pointing toward Jesus…that’s the goal right? The Vatican has always taken a long time to approve apparition sites because they don’t want to approve a site and then be wrong. Only good things have come from Medjugorje. Marys message is to Pray, Pray, Pray, for the unbelievers. What is so offending about messages of hope and peace leading us to Jesus. Conversion, fasting and prayers is the hallmark of her messages and to warn us that things will get worse on earth if we don’t return to Jesus. She is here pleading with mankind to return to Jesus. That Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. I suggest you go to Medjugorje and only then will YOU be qualified to speak of it. Until then don’t be so hard headed and open up alittle because Jesus did say that his sons and daughters would see signs and wonders in the sky in the end times. I am grateful that I am a catholic who believes that Mary is appearing here on earth. Watch for the “warning” and then the “permanent sign” in Medjugorje and then you will remember me.

  • JAC

    Many people say “but I witnessed the spinning of the sun’.
    Sadly they seem to refuse to acknowledge this is the ‘false wonders’ Jesus warned us about.
    Though my experience, the followers of Medjugorje ignore the money the seers are making. Eg Ivan alone must earn 1.6 million dollars EVERY year just with his hotel. He also receives a lot of money when he gives his testimony.
    I don’t know, did God change the rules? Is it good to make lots of money from having apparitions?
    Vicka is quoted as saying that the Virgin said ‘yes’ to her when she asked the Virgin if she should build a hotel. Rather strange when true seers live humble lives out of the lime light.
    I believe the whole idea of Medjugorje is to divide the faithful. Look it is happening!
    Jesus gave Peter our church. Yet there are those who will choose Medjugorje over the church! AMAZING!

  • JAC

    The ‘glowing statue’ has disappeared from the media.
    It was a very bad prank.
    But how clever was Vicka or maybe those that guide her, to say the statue has been given to the Vatican to be analysed. What rubbish! I bet it was not given to the Vatican, it was probably hidden out of sight so the lie gets forgotten about!

  • JAC

    Dianne, I think that was unfair to say to Pat “You need to get out and read more instead of being so closed minded.”
    I did once believe in Medjugorje. Because I am NOT closed minded I could see the other side too.
    Sadly, I believe you ‘only’ read what comes from the official Medjugorje sites so you don’t get the whole story.
    If Medjugorje was from God. It would be ALL good not partly good. It is clearly not all good.
    Let us not forget Fr Tomislav Vlasic who was for 3 years the spiritual director to the seers. Dianne do you know about Fr Vlasic?
    21/10/84 “Fr Jozo Zovko is a living saint.” Yet he was suspended for numerous sexual assaults. He was suspended a second time for disobedience.
    What saint has ‘ever’ been disobedient?
    Terry Colanfracesco (wealthy business man) asked for an apparition on his property. It was agreed to! hummm?

  • JAC

    What Mary of promises, Mary stays by.
    3rd July 1981 The Virgin promises a sign. “It will be permanent. It will not be possible to annihilate it…It will be visible to everybody.”
    “It will be on Dec 8th 1981.”
    “It will be on Christmas.”
    It will be January 1982.”

    Oh dear, it didn’t happen.

    Vicka notes in her diary. 11th Jan 1982. “The Virgin is against the Bishop”
    WHAT NONSCIENCE!
    20th Jan 1982. The seers ask about the priests being excluded from their order by Rome. The Virgin replies. “They are not guilty. In their decision they have acted hastily, let them stay.”

    Between 16th-26th April 1982 the alleged Virgin spoke against the Bishop again and again. By this time masses, confessions etc were being said by suspended priests. This is SACRILEGIOUS!

    These are the fruits of Medjugorje! Disobedience. There is a real worry now, as most of the people who ‘follow’ this lie feel as if Medjugorje is our faith and not our church.
    Pope Francis is now speaking against it. Who side are you on?

  • Pat

    Thank you JAC for defending my previous comment made to Dianne. But I fear we’re fighting a losing battle trying to reason with these fanatics. Look at what Dianne said in her comment to me:- “The propagandist website you sent me was so biased it isn’t funny”. She was referring to the official diocesan site of the Bishop of Mostar, who she describes as a ‘propagandist’! She then gives a link which is from a group which has no legitimate authority in this matter. You couldn’t make it up. Look at the way she rudely dismisses the confirmed public statement made by Cardinal Ratzinger, about the lies spread about his and Blessed John Paul II’s views on Medjugorje:- “I wouldn’t ask Ratzinger”. The anti-hierarchical, anti-Catholic, schismatic trajectory is there for all to see. You can also see the cult mentality taking hold – she claims that I will ONLY be qualified to speak about Medjugorje if I have been there. She fails to understand that I would not be qualified even if I went to Medjugorje 1,000 times, as I am neither the local Ordinary, in the Bishops’ Conference or in the CDF. All I can do is obey their directives and suggest others do the same. But I fear she won’t, and I fear she may be the type that will follow the cult out of the Church. Let us pray for Dianne and all those caught up in this problem.

  • JAC

    Yes. Unfortunately we may well be fighting a losing battle. But we must keep speaking out as there are ‘some’ who seek the truth. If it wasn’t for people like you Pat, I could still be believing the Mother of God is appearing in Medjugorje. Sadly, when I was told about this alleged apparition site, I was only told the things that sound good. The promoters of Medjugorje don’t tell ‘all’ the story. I had to read it off the internet from others, then I did my own research to find out first hand the ‘wealth’ the seers have through their ‘apparitions’.
    How sad it is to have our beloved JP11 words misled. He is also being used to promote Garabandal which again is on the increase through to people seeking more than the Gospel. But that is another story.
    At the end of the day, we must be obedient to the church and if 34 out of 35 Bishops have said “It is NOT the Virgin who is appearing there” we should listen!

  • JAC

    My opinion on ‘why’ satan is appearing in Medjugorje.
    He is dividing the church.
    He is making us feel as if we shouldn’t trust our priests! Read how people who follow Medj and Garabandal talk. They all speak as if we have to be cautious of our priests.
    In Garabandal ‘many priests are on the road to perdition’.
    In Medjugorje how often is it said to ‘pray for our priests?’ While it is good to pray for preists as everyone needs prayers, it has planted a seed to make us feel as if we can not trust them. Of course the scandal has not helped.
    But gratefully, the majority of our priests are very good and are carrying a cross, and it is not helping when so called ‘catholics’ make their cross heavier.
    I urge all catholics to be obedient to what the church says. Remember, Jesus gave Peter our church so it is ‘Holy.’

  • Dianne

    @Pat:
    I’ll address both you and JAC since you two seem to be in love with each other. Thanks for the name calling “fanatic”. I see your true character. The Bishops Conference in 1991 voted to classify Medjugorje (and this by the way is the last official stance on medjugorje): it decided that it can not be confirmed supernatural, but also expresses its favorability to the apparitions. Beware, for it is you and JAC who are going against the church by condemning Medjugorje when the church has not. You should reconsider avoiding websites that condemn Medjugorje for fear of going against church teaching. I don’t know where you get your info from but Pope Benedict saw good fruits from medjugorje.
    http://www.medjugorjemiracles.com/2010/08/pope-benedict-xvi-sees-the-good-fruits-of-medjugorje-official-vatican-source/ Im sorry to see you lead people astray like JAC. You know that Yugoslavia was strictly communist at the time of the start of the apparitions right? It is still some what communist. Bishop Zanic of Mostar at the time who believed in the apparitions was summoned by the communist state police and interrogated over his involvement in Medjugorje. The interrogations being true to form, also threatened the bishop with imprisonment, just as they had Fr. Jozo, if he didn’t stop supporting the apparitions. So he complied and denounced medjugorje but Fr. Jozo did not and thus was taken to jail. Like those tactics? That’s were Real official church doctrine comes from huh? Fr. Jozo was persecuted by unjust communists. JAC doesn’t make much sense just lots of ramblings but seems to think that Mary had some unauthoritative reservations about this bishop (which according to him she is not allowed to have)…hhmmmmm I wonder why? But I guess the Pope is allowed to admonish a bishop but not the mother of God oh,no sacrilege- in 2002 the Pope elevated Sister Emmanuels community(the same sister who bishop Zanic condemned and said that she was not a nun, she had no right to call herself sister) to full recognition. You actually make me laugh with your words calling me “anti-hierarchial, anti-Catholic, schismatic trajectory is there for all to see”, and “You can see the cult mentality
    taking hold”, really ….who talks like that?? Funny stuff! You don’t know me yet you act like you do. I love my catholic faith and will never leave it. I love the sacraments of the church, and how we have so many traditions handed down to us thru the centuries. I attend church every week-end and volunteer at my church. I try to convince my husband that the catholic church is the TRUE church and he should be following it. Medjugorje has brought me closer to my faith, for I use to be one of those doubting Thomas’ years ago. I know that you don’t believe in the supernatural because you personally have not seen anything and you seem to think that people aren’t suppose to see angels, etc. That’s when you start sounding like a protestant. What about all of the approved apparition sites where Jesus, Mary or angels came to this earth with messages and appeared to regular people like you and me? That’s one thing great about the catholic faith, we believe in stuff like that, protestants don’t. Its just them and Jesus no one else. We have the saints too. Its funny to hear JAC be worried that I am going to follow a cult, really? You two are something else. There have only been a handful of bad Popes and yet the church has survived. You can not leave Peter because of Judas. Everybody sins even Popes. Faith in itself is a miracle. You have eyes but you can not see- ears but you can not hear. The Madonna is coming to Medjugorje to call for Peace. Hey Pat I bet your going to write back and say, “Oh, look what she said, and Oh, look what she did” just like you did with Michael and Chris. Hopefully you won’t call me names this time. You crack me up.

  • JAC

    Dianne, I suppose we just have to listen to what Pope Francis is saying “Mary is not a post office that sends messages every day.”
    Personally, I will never believe someone speaks to the Mother of God every day when they can make money from it. Money through having alleged apparitions? Seers treated and act like pop stars, is not like the humble seers of Fatima or like St Bernadette who entered religious life out of the lime light.
    But I wish you well and I hope you will accept the verdict of the Pope as many have decided not to listen to the verdict of the Bishops.
    Dianne, Have you seen what the Bishops have said about Medjugorje?

  • Pat

    Dianne,
    I could rebut your post piece-by-piece using only official ecclesiastically approved material as I have only ever done in my comments (I see you have a penchant for the unofficial stuff!) and show it up for the uncharitable and arrant nonsense that it is, but I’m tired of repeating myself about this issue. Time is short, it’s Advent, my family are about to arrive for Sunday lunch, and I want to concentrate on the spiritual preparation we should all be making at this time. Read my posts above and in the previous thread on Medjugorje. As I said to someone else, in a sense, you are a gift. Every time you speak, you make the case for Medjugorje being false far more eloquently than I ever could. Anyone who comes on this blog who has a modicum of intelligence will be able to see that. Now, you seem like the sort of person who likes to have the last word and win an argument (maybe that’s why your husband doesn’t convert?) so I’ll give you that opportunity, because I’m not responding to your rants any more. The tragedy is that if you follow this cult out of the Church, none of us will be winners, not me, not JAC, and certainly not you. You carry on having your funny little visions, and I’ll carry on being obedient to the hierarchical Church that Our Lord instituted. We’ll have to see who was right on Judgement Day. God bless you and I wish you an anger and stress free Advent and Christmas! JAC, whoever and wherever you are, God bless you for your witness. Have a blessed Advent and Christmas.

  • John Sheridan

    Dianne – If you’re having trouble getting your husband to accept the truths of the Catholic Faith, please accept some advice. Don’t feed him unapproved apparition stuff. No disrespect intended, I think it’s a guy thing. Feed him some solid doctrine. This book is amazing. Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine by Archbishop Michael Sheehan. If this doesn’t get him thinking, nothing will. http://www.amazon.com/Apologetics-Catholic-Doctrine-Cardinal-Sheehan/dp/1905574452/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1385913832&sr=1-1

  • Dianne

    JAC
    I guess we will hopefully find out the vaticans official ruling on Medjugorje in 2014, at least that is when they are suppose to make their ruling, but then again I think they said they would make a ruling back in 2012 but didn’t. I believe you have a right to your opinion and hope that you will at least agree with me that we disagree in our beliefs concerning Medjugorje. Here’s a website quoting bishops from around the world and what they believe concerning Medjugorje, and some of them have very favorable views I might add. So as far as listening to the verdict of the Bishops, well I guess it depends on which Bishops you want to listen to. As far as local Bishops, Well Bishop Peric of Mostar has a very negative view about Medjugorje so the Vatican decided it was best to step in and take over the investigation. http://www.medjugorje.hr/en/medjugorje-phenomenon/church/bishops/2006/ I believe the seers are very humble, for they unselfishly give up their time, away from their families to heed the calling needs of the faithful. I know that Mirjana spends a lot of her time helping at the orphanage in Medjugorje. I mean have you seen the bags under her eyes lately, she’s younger than I am and I don’t have those bags…I’m sure its not from being up late every night counting her hoards of money. I remember being at Vickas house and listening to her testimony. It gave me hope listening to her. You said something about how you thought Ivan probably made about 1.6 mil. a year from his hotel. Do you know exactly how much money Ivan makes? Do you know how much he gives to charity? Just asking? I, like you will heed and listen to the final judgment by the Vatican on Medjugorje ,which is a long and lengthy process involving lots and lots of people, not just the Pope. Other Popes in the past have been careful not to place judgment until the final ruling of the church. I guess that is another thing different about this Pope from others in the past. I hope you know that satan is strong and wants to destroy all hope in our hearts. Don’t let him. I also wish you well and I hope you have a merry Christmas. Peace

  • JAC

    Dianne, I believe it to be sinful to argue about religion, so I will try not to do this.
    I hope the ruling does happen very soon (I think it will). But you know, the ruling has happened many times and the faithful have ignored it. It is the Bishops job to make this judgement and 34 out of 35 have said “Do not follow Medjugorje.” I believe the Vatican has got involved so they can close it down once and for all, that way there can be no argument. Sadly, I have no doubt there will be those who ignore the Pope’s verdict too. I hope you won’t be one of them!

    I am sorry Dianne, but those links you gave are from the ‘promoters’ of Medjugorje. This has been the whole problem. They only tell you what they want you to know. Can I suggest you to read what is said in the diocese of Mostar. This is our church, here is our faith, there shows the truth.

    Vicka humble? To me she looks like she loves the lime light. She is treated like a pop star.
    Dianna, google “Medjugorje seer Vicka flinches while in ecstasy” Then listen to her obvious lie at the end. This should leave you no doubt at all. Let us not forget the ‘glowing Mary statue’ in which she lied about recently.

    Regarding what money Ivan makes, it isn’t too hard to work out. Nearly 1,000 USD a week per person to stay at his hotel. It holds 35 people. That equals 35,000 a week, times by 52 weeks = 1,820,000 million dollars a year. I brought the figure down to 1.6 million to give him the benefit of the doubt that his hotel isn’t always full. But Dianne, it is full most of the time! Bosnia is VERY cheap to live, so the food he prepares for his guests is very minimal to his costs. Imagine receiving that much money EVERY year!
    I witnessed his testimony where he was up on a ‘stage’ so the 800 people could see him stage his alleged apparition. After a bucket went around collecting money for his time. I stupidly gave a lot of money.
    I do not know how much Ivan gives to charity. But I can tell you that he took from the poor through his testimony.

    As for the seers giving up their time. Well they are going to work just like we do, but they are doing it from a lie and making a large sum of money from it.

    Yes, satan is roaming comfortably through the earth, and he loves to have us catholics being disobedient to the church Jesus gave Peter.
    The alleged Mary of Medjugorje often talks about praying for our priests. May I suggest we pray for the ‘seers’ of Medjugorje.

    Dianne, I have a lot of hope in my heart. My hope lies in Jesus, in my church. I put no hope in any unapproved apparition as so I won’t be led astray.
    God Bless!

  • JAC

    BTW. John Sheridan gives some sound advice. If you want someone to accept truths of the Catholic Church, you have to give them the truths. Ask for advice from your priests, this is what they like to do, help gather the lost sheep.

  • JAC

    Recently, Pope Francis spoke against looking for more and suggested we just read the Bible. This reminded me of what St John of the Cross said. It is a warning to not listen to todays prophecies.

    “In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word—and he has no more to say… because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behaviour but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty” (No. 65; Saint John of the Cross,The Ascent of Mount Carmel, II, 22).

  • Dianne

    John Sheridan
    I appreciate your advice and will check out the book. BTW I do “feed” my husband solid doctrine but he has been a protestant for 40+ years and of course like most have a problem with the false notion that we catholics worship Mary, that he cant understand why he cant receive communion, not to mention he has a fallen away catholic for a father who hates the catholic church so he feeds him lies, and he has a fundamentalist brother who believes I am going to hell because I am catholic. Now you see what I am up against. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. I can put the book in front of him but I can’t make him read it. But I will love him even if he is protestant. Thanks again for your advice.

  • John Sheridan

    Dianne – I appreciate your problems. But take heart my friend, take heart. A lady I know who is a devout, very active Catholic married a non-Catholic, and whatever she tried, she couldn’t get him to convert. They had a long and good marriage. In the end she just prayed, offered sacrifices and had Masses said, and left it to God. The husband, sadly, developed a fatal illness and was received into the Church on his deathbed. So never give up, where there’s life, there’s hope. But – and I am reluctant to say this, because you may think I’m attacking you – please also accept this advice offered in good faith. If I were you, for any prayers and sacrifices to be effective, I would personally avoid all involvement in unapproved or controversial apparitions, wherever they may emanate from. Better safe than sorry. The Church has already approved so much in the way of apparitions of Our Lady, particularly Fatima. I would stick with those things if I were you.

    JAC – Marco Corvaglia has this information about Ivan’s property deals in the USA in English and Italian http://www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/about-an-inquiry-on-ivan.html and there is firm evidence that he makes far more money than most people out there. I couldn’t afford to buy a house with a swimming pool in one year, and I suspect most of us couldn’t.

  • JAC

    John, thanks for that link which is further proof.
    I read some of the responses to that link. This is also proof of people choosing to be blind. Through their own free will some choose to ignore the bad because it seems to be they desire more than the word of God.

  • Dianne

    John Sheridan
    No offence taken John. I love a good spirited debate. As for Medjugorje, as long as the Vatican is currently stating and giving lay people like me permission if you will to go to the site including priests, bishops etc. then I will continue to have hope and believe. And you know it really doesn’t matter because we as catholics already know that Mary is appearing here on earth with warnings and messages through all of the approved apparition sites like Fatima that you mentioned ,including the first here in America at the New Franken Shrine in Grn Bay, which only took 150yrs to be approved. I respect your decision to not get involved. Merry Christmas

  • Dianne Marinshaw

    @ john Konnor
    Don’t understand how Tarot cards which are an evil form themselves and a form of sorcery helps you explain how medjugorje to you, is evil. weird!

  • john konnor

    …its the same spirit at work..hence the similarity..modus operandi..the medjugogues are involved in divination..ie the ten secrets or 60 secrets or what have you..the presence of spirit photography..the new age latitudinarianism etc etc…so we see the spritis are the same…tarot cards are evil and so is the spirit attached to the phenonmenon..the sacraments are exploited by the pundits at this place..indeed it is not weird..ad hominem….modus ponens (to affirm by affirming)..tarot cards are a vehicle of divination and subjectivism medjugorje the phenonmenon contains elements of divination and subjectivism etc etc..not wierd..logical

  • Faith.7

    Let’s see… Ivan, one of the seers, had a message from the Blessed Mother back in August of 2013. She told him that her warnings were going to come in conflict with the Vatican. That the church would be tested. So, what does this mean? Let’s look at the 3rd secret of Fatima: the Blessed Mother said that Bishops would be against Bishops, Priests against Priests, the evil would be at the highest levels of the church, the VATICAN-THE POPE! She said apostacy would reign in our church! MANY of the faithful would be lost! Is this sounding familiar to you?… And when Vatican II convened, the Pope at that time, FAILED to announce the 3rd secret to the world. The 3rd secret called for the Pope, Priests and Bishops to come back to the basics and principal teachings of the church. Back to the roots of Catholicism, back to the original words of Our Lord in Holy Scripture! Did they listen?… NO! The Pope said he didn’t wan’t a message of doom to dampen HIS PLANS FOR REFORM!!! A reform that has become a BLASPHEMY to Our God! A Joke! A Clowns Act!!! So, who is in discord with God now?! And now we have a current Pope that DOESN’T CARE to acknowledge the thousands of TESTIMONIES from believers whom have been HEALED! Not by Doctors, but by GOD! With Our Blessed Mothers Intervention! No ONE is TRULY ASKING WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?! BY WHAT REASONING IS POPE FRANCES IGNORING THE VOICES OF THESE PEOPLE AND ALLOWING THE VISIONARIES TO BE DISCREDITED? This all looks like a witch hunt to me! And God CAN’T AND WILL NEVER BE FOOLED!!! Vicar or No Vicar!!!

    • Dianne

      @faith 7
      Thank God someone who has common sence showed up on this thread. Most of the comments here believe that once Jesus or Mary appears to you then all of a sudden one is not human any more and miraculously you can’t make mistakes anymore. I wonder if these people ever heard of Peter who denied Christ and Moses who disobeyed God and was not allowed to enter the promised land. Thanks for the enlightening comments.

  • john konnor

    …the material and or formal apostates are those who willfully reject the discernment of the local Bishop the decrees of the CdF and the advice of the Pope…the medjugogues who claim loyalty to Jesus while ignoring his Agents (magisterium) are duplicitous and faithless…the Gospa herself has maligned an Agent of God as well as contradicted a prior Pope..one wonders which side the Gospa is on??? MMthose who have eyes to see do indeed see…

  • JAC

    Faith.7, you sound like you have lost trust in our church.
    This is not a surprise to me as I once felt like that.
    ‘mistrust’ in our church or in priests are the ‘fruits’ of Medjugorje and Garabandal.

    I say ‘I once felt like that’. I do not any more. Because I can see clearer now. I can see both apparitions were of satan.

    I can see this is why satan has appeared in these places. He is willing to call us to prayer and the sacraments to satisfy the faithful. He allows this so the faithful will turn against the church.

    Faith.7, always remember. If there is just ‘one’ thing that is NOT right with apparitions, you can be sure it is not from God. Because ‘everything’ from God is good! Both sites have contradictions!

    Don’t you realise the Pope and our church ‘do’ protect us?
    Let’s not forget “Peter, you are the rock in which I will build my church.”

    No, the Pope doesn’t want messages of doom and gloom. He, in his wisdom knows we need words of hope and trust in Jesus.
    Can’t you see so many people following these apparitions are moving to the ‘unforgivable sin’, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?
    So many prefer to see doom and gloom oppose to seeing the merciful Jesus.

  • john konnor

    @ Dianne..for what it is worth…

    by affirming the consequent and presuming Mary is appearing at medjugorje before any authentication has been finalized you err in prudence…you also poison the well regarding Catholics of good conscience who see the evil of the conceit and vainglory associated with obstinantly trusting one’s own assumptions ahead of the Church..this type of disobeidence is willfull …..and so there is no parity between the frailty or veniality of the sins of Moses and Peter…both under duress did not trust in divine aid and so God in his infinite mercy healed them both by showing a sign for all (the resurrection for Peter and the water flowing for Moses…the sign in both instances is for all not for just one person as the spirit of God is for all..yet in medjugorje no sign is given..peter at the outset had a good will and a good will cannot produce bad fruit..as Jesus said a good tree (good will) does not produce bad fruit…since peter said… “i will die with thee but i will not deny thee”…yet under duress he denied Christ…this is venial..as Moses out of anger in the heat of the moment struck the rock…this was also not willful disobedience occaisoned by vainglory…so there is no parity..since at Medjugorje we see the opposite we see willful disobedience against authorized Church claims of non supernaturality..indeed the Church allows people to go since the Church cannot bar anyone from going anywhere due to exxaggerated curiosity..everything at Medjugorje is exaggerated..as the pope said this is not a spirit of God..it is a spirit of dispersion..the devil is subtle….but a mark of the devil is obstinancy and a will determined to defy the Church and CHrist and to set oneself above..as the devil said “I” will not serve..as you are saying … “I” see the sun spin and “I” feel medjugorje to be true..yet the Church does not see it and so you suffer from a deficit of trust in God..indeed maybe your will and your intention aspires for good yet you continue to persecute Christ by relying on your own subjectivity….as it says..”there will come a time when they killeth you and think they doeth God a service”.. as you are ignoring the bishop and killing his discernment you also believe you do God a service…”such people have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge which is rooted in wisdom”…as the Pope said the spirit of curiosity is an enemy to wisdom….

  • JAC

    If you are truly a catholic you will be obedient to the church. Remember the creed?
    This is what the Bishop says about Medjugorje. I know the ‘alleged’ Mary in Medj said before the Bishop is ‘wrong’ about decisions regarding Medjugorje. But anyone with any common sense should immediately know The Mother of God would NEVER say that.

    Brothers and Sisters,

    Today here in Medjugorje, on the occasion of administering the sacrament of confirmation, you are perhaps expecting me to say a few words concerning those events about which the whole world is talking. The Church must concern herself with them, and whatever is of concern to the Church, she refers to particular individuals and commissions to investigate and discern. You know that at the moment this subject is being discussed by the commission which was convened by the Conference of Bishops of Yugoslavia (CBY), because the Church cannot expose her credibility lightly before the 20th century world.

    I can assure you that I prayed, studied, and kept silent for six years. Others have prayed too, and I thank them for it. In every Holy Mass that I have said Medjugorje was present in my intentions. In my daily rosary I prayed to Our Lady to give me light from God, and also the Holy Ghost. This has helped me to form a firm and certain conviction concerning everything that I have heard, read or experienced. There is a great deal of praying and fasting going on here (in Medjugorje), but it is in the belief that all the events are truly supernatural. However, to preach falsehood to the faithful concerning God, Jesus, and Our Lady – that merits the depths of hell.

    In all my work, prayers, and studies I had one aim before me – to discern the truth. With this aim, as early as 1982, I formed a four-member commission[1] which later, with the help of some bishops and fathers provincial, I expanded to 15 members drawn from nine theological centers, from seven dioceses and four provinces, and two leading psychiatrists who were enabled to consult their colleagues. They worked for three years. The Holy See was informed about their work, and the events. This commission of the CBY continues to concern itself with the same problem.

    However, there were impatient people who went ahead before the judgement of the Church, and declared that miracles and supernatural events were taking place. They preached on private revelations from the altar, something which is not permitted until the Church declares such revelations to be authentic. That is why the various authorities demanded that pilgrimages should not be organised, that the Church’s judgement should be awaited. This was first done on 24 March 1984 when the commission on Medjugorje warned against it,[2] but, unfortunately, without effect. Then, in October of the same year, the Conference of Bishops declared that there should be no more officially organised pilgrimages to Medjugorje.[3] By “officially organised” is meant those who gather or come in a group. That had no effect either. Then the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome, on 23 May 1985, sent a letter to the Conference of Italian Bishops asking them to try to reduce the number of organised pilgrimages, and likewise to minimise all forms of propaganda.[4] That too bore no fruit. Finally, when the second commission was formed, Cardinal Franjo Kuharić and the Bishop of Mostar, in the name of the CBY, declared publicly on 9 January 1987: “For this reason it is forbidden to organise pilgrimages or other manifestations motivated by the supernatural character attributed to the events in Medjugorje”.[5] This pronouncement came from the highest level in the Church and must not be ignored as if it were of no significance.
    Ever since the first news appeared concerning the unusual events in this diocese, the bishop’s office followed the reports carefully, and collected everything that could serve in the search for truth. The bishop allowed the seers and parish religious involved full freedom, and even defended them from political and press attacks.[6] We taped all the conversations, collected chronicles and diaries, letters and documents. The commission of our professors of theology and physicians studied all this for three years. The three year work of the commission concluded as follows: two members voted in favour of the truth and supernatural nature of the apparitions. One member abstained from voting. One accepted that something had happened at the beginning. Eleven voted that there had been no apparitions – non constat de supernaturalitate.

    I am firmly convinced that all the members of the commission worked conscientiously and examined everything which could have aided their search for truth. The Church cannot risk her credibility, and often, in similar cases, she has studied events like these carefully and rebuked groups who gathered in places where it had been established that the events were not supernatural. Let us remember Garabandal in Spain, San Damiano in Italy, and dozens of similar places in the past few years. The seers at Garabandal claimed that Our Lady promised a great sign for the whole world. Twenty-five years have passed since then, and still there is no sign. If Our Lady had left a sign it would be clear to all what this is about.

    It was said that Our Lady started to appear at Podbrdo on Mount Crnica. When the police stopped people going there she appeared in people’s homes, on fences, in fields, in vineyards, and tobacco fields. She appeared in the church, on the altar, in the sacristy, in the choir-loft, on the roof, in the bell-tower, on the roads, on the road to Cerno, in a car, on a bus, in schools, at several places in Mostar and Sarajevo, in monasteries in Zagreb, in Varaždin, in Switzerland, in Italy, then again at Podbrdo, in Križevac, in the parish, on the presbytery and so on. This does not list even half the number of locations where apparitions were alleged to have taken place, so that a sober man who venerates Our Lady must ask: “My Lady, what are they making of you?”

    By divine law I am the pastor in this diocese, the teacher of the faith, and the judge in questions concerning the faith. Since the events in Medjugorje have caused strife and division in the Church – some people believing, others not believing – because there are those who have refused to submit themselves to the authority of the Church. Because the recommendations and decisions of the above mentioned authorities, Commission, Congregation and the Bishops’ conference had no effect, I, the bishop of Mostar, answerable before God for the discipline in this diocese repeat and confirm earlier decisions of ecclesiastical bodies, and I to the priests who organise the pilgrimages, or come here and attribute a supernatural character to these events before the Commission of the Bishops’ conference completes its work, I forbid to celebrate Holy Mass in my diocese.

    I turn to you, O Immaculate Virgin and Mother, Mother of God, and Mother of the Church, Mother of the faithful who seek, pray to, and love you. I, your servant, the bishop of Mostar, turn to you, and before the whole world declare my deep and constant faith in all the privileges God bestowed upon you according to which you are the first and most excellent of His creatures. I express my profound and undeserving faith in your intercession before Almighty God for all the needs of your children in this vale of tears.

    I declare my profound and constant faith in your love towards us sinners, that love to which you have testified by your apparitions and assistance. I myself have led pilgrimages to Lourdes. It is precisely with the strength of this faith that I, your servant the bishop of Mostar, before the great multitudes who have called upon you, discern and accept your great sign which after six years, has become clear and certain. The sign you have given is that for six years you remained silent continually whenever they prophesied that there would be an apparition on the mountain which would be permanent and for all to see. “It will be soon, quite soon, just be patient a little longer” They were saying this as early as 1981. … Then they claimed that it would be on the feast of the Immaculate Conception, then at Christmas, then for the New Year and so on. No special sign is necessary for me, but it was necessary for those who believed in a falsehood.

    Thank you, Blessed Lady, for manifesting by your six year silence whether or not you have spoken here, whether or not you had appeared or given messages, revealed secrets, or promised a special sign. Most holy Virgin, Mother of Christ and our Mother, intercede for peace in this restless region of the Church, the diocese of Mostar. Intercede especially for this village, this parish where your holy name has been mentioned countless times in messages which were not yours and intercede to be stopped the messages which are not yours. Accept, most holy Virgin, in reparation, the sincere prayers of those devout souls who are far from fanaticism and disobedience within the Church. Help us all to come to the real truth. Beloved, humble, and obedient Maiden of God, help Medjugorje to follow with a firm step the shepherd of the Church, so that we all may glorify you and thank you in truth and love. Amen.*

    Pavao Žanić, bishop of Mostar

  • Dianne

    @johnkonnor

    I think you have been watching way to much Harry Potter. Not sure “what” you were trying to say? Sounds like you believe that only men in the church can think for you. You would make a good little minion. So, you believe no one can believe in an apparition until the church approves it. So, if you lived at the time of Fatima and Lourdes you would’ve been SOL. You probably would have been going around telling everyone that the devil is appearing in these places and then “OOPs” you were wrong. Hey, guess what, the bishops and cardinals in the church are ‘people’ too (human). I bet you think that Biden and Pelosi are good catholics too! If you have no ability to discern then oh well, but remember you are no one with any authority to label Medjugorje evil.

    • JAC

      But Dianne, if John did live in the times of Fatima and Lourdes and chose not to believe in it, it would not matter. To not follow an apparition makes no difference to ones soul.
      BUT… To follow an apparition that the church has clearly said ‘no’ to is being disobedient and you allow yourself to be open to something that could possibly be from satan. Now this can and does make a difference to ones soul.

      So John may be ‘no one with authority to label Medjugorje’, so you don’t need to listen to him. but…
      The Bishops have authority, and have said “Do not follow”.

  • john konnor

    ..the men in the Church are the ecclesia docens (teaching church)…as Jesus said he would send the Paraclete to be with the apostles to ensure the gates of hell would never prevail over it..so by trusting the Agents of Christ who do not espouse sin i place my complete trust in Him…a Liberal material heretic such as yourself does not trust Jesus nor does not wish to learn about the workings of the true Church..you are simply a luncheonette catholic who picks the cheapest fare since it costs you less in the denial of your will which you cling to at all cost like a spiritual miser… you rely on jabs of character to evince your conceit and petulant disregard for the virtue of humility and obedience…your false propositions which try to equate the visions of fatima lourdes and medjugorje show there is no parity between the phenomenon…at lourdes and fatima a sign was asked and was promptly given…the sacraments and the sacramentals at medjugorje are exploited by the spin doctors of the phenomenon..this is why the bishop has tried numerous times to quell the presence of festivals..now the cdf has stepped in to butress the local ordinary’s pleas to cease with the madness…you can believe as you wish..yet to do this without Church approval is imprudent and places your faith which is your card to eternal happiness in danger and at the mercy of possible charlatans and religious quacks…it is better to err on the side of caution since as john of the cross says about spiritual beginners who are like unto small children in the spiritual life petulant and rowdy and a slave to their own desire…”Some are very insistent that their spiritual director(the local Bishop at Medjugorje) allow them to do
    what they themselves want to do, and finally almost force the permission
    from him. And if they do not get what they want, they become sad and go
    about like testy children. They are under the impression that they do not
    serve God when they are not allowed to do what they want. Since they take
    gratification in their own will as their support and their god, they
    become sad, weak, and discouraged when their director takes these from them
    and desires that they do God’s will. They think that gratifying and
    satisfying themselves is serving and satisfying God.”….a dicto simplicter no correlation regarding the Biden and Pelosi jab…you are like a little kid..your third grade tactic of tu quoque- i am rubber and you are glue … shows you are petulant young spiritual novice who is deceived and thinks she is a great master..pray for me

  • JAC

    Jeremiah 23:21
    I did not send these prophets,
    yet they have run with their message;
    I did not speak to them,
    yet they have prophesied.

    Jeremiah 23:10-11
    The land is full of adulterers;
    because of the curse[a] the land lies parched
    and the pastures in the wilderness are withered.
    The prophets follow an evil course
    and use their power unjustly.
    “Both prophet and priest are godless;
    even in my temple I find their wickedness,”
    declares the Lord.

    1 Timothy 4:1-2
    The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

  • john konnor

    @ JAC

    ..dats da fact JAC…thank God for those humble servants such as yourself who through patience and careful nurturing of grace..have took the time and come to know the ledge about their faith…may God have mercy on our souls… ;-)

  • Dianne

    @jac
    Do you ever stop to think that the bishops in the old Yugoslavia were threatened by the communist state?? Bishop Zanic of Mostar at the time who believed in the apparitions was summoned by the communist state police and interrogated over his involvement in Medjugorje. The interrogations being true to form, also threatened the bishop with imprisonment, just as they had Fr. Jozo, if he didn’t stop supporting the apparitions. So he complied and denounced medjugorje but Fr. Jozo did not and thus was taken to jail. Talking about disobedience to the church…You read some letter by Fr. Zanic in which he states, “I forbid to celebrate Holy Mass in my diocese.”, well if that isn’t disobedience then I don’t know what is. You have faith in a disobedient priest…odd?
    You and john konnor ironically also quoted “John of the Cross” who alleged to have had his own visions of the crucified Christ sometime btw 1574-1577. I find it very funny that both of you would quote him since he was also claiming to have his own “personal” apparitions.
    The church has clearly Not said ‘No’ to medjugorje which you and john fail to accept. Many many bishops and cardinals from around the world believe in medjugorje and take pigrimages there with the vaticans approval. No one who goes to medjugorje is breaking any rules. There are official Vatican documents of pope benedict seeing good fruits of medjugorje. Approved apparition sites over the years have taken anywhere from 1yr to 100s of years to be approved. There is no law within the church that states that one cannot believe in an apparition site until it is approved by the church. To lead others to believe that there is can endanger your soul for false preaching.

    @john carter..oops john konnor
    (your quote)–*”you rely on jabs of character to evince your conceit and petulant disregard for the virtue of humility and obedience”…lets see, you called me.. liberal material heretic.. luncheonette catholic.. spiritual miser.. dicto simplicter??(what ever that is)..petulant young spiritual novice.. and great master. Sounds like you are eating your own words, but those are the tactics of liberals… to confuse and evade. Had some simple questions which required only simple answers which you seem to have trouble with. Never answered my Biden/Pelosi question??
    I find it funny you used John of the Cross as your endorser to condemn the alleged apparitions of medjugorje when he claimed to have his own personal apparitions of the crucified Christ.
    Lucky for you to live in the times of “good” popes. You remember Pope Alexander VI… Most wicked and corrupt Pope in history.., his uncle was pope Calixtus III, who bestowed positions on him as a teen. Pope Alexander VI bribed his way to St. Peters- appointing anyone he could to cardinal (strength in #’s you know), had and active sex life, arranged murders and had orgies. I point this out not to condemn the church but to emphasize that popes and bishops or cardinals can be corrupt and bad, therefore we need the ability to be able to discern, we can not either leave the catholic church because of a few judas’. The essence of the church will always exist, its traditions, sacramentals, true teachings of the church passed down to us by Jesus and the disciples. The bishops of mostar have been compromised, that is what you fail to see and there have been no official rulings by the church on Medjugorje.

  • JAC

    Hello Dianne. I am not going to get in an argument with you. You will believe what you want to believe.
    All I want to show is you are only believing what the promoters say about Medjugorje. In fact it seems you prefer to ignore what the church has said. I posted what the decision was on Medjugorje. The Bishop said “Eleven voted that there had been ‘no’ apparitions. This is very simple language to understand yet you choose not to hear it.

    Regarding St John of The Cross. I do not know about his vision of the Crucified Christ.
    But St John of the Cross did NOT give any new revelation and I am sure he was not guilty in desiring a vision.
    So I think you are missing the point which St John of the Cross said. It is part of catechism.
    “The life of Christ is God’s final word and deed, the end of divine Revelation. There will NEVER be a new public revelation until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again at the end of time.”

    This again is very clear and simple words to understand.

    There are so many words in the bible in which speaks against these false prophets. I could post many, but there is probably no point. If the words of St John and our catechist isn’t enough for one to hear, then nothing will.

    As Pope Francis said. “But Mary is “not a postmaster of the post office sending out messages every day.”
    He also said. “purported visions of Mary can lead people away from God”

    Who really prefers to ignore the words of our leader and risk being led by the deceiver?
    Is it really worth the risk?

  • john konnor

    @ diane

    Retorts redundant sophomoric soporific…the wisps of red herring poorly conceal the vitriolic sulphurous attitude you try to pass off as Christian charity..pray for me

  • Dianne

    Hey jac:
    I don’t want to argue with you either so lets call this a spirited debate. You state “you are only believing what the promoters say about Medjugorje”. Let me refresh your memory from my previous posts…I have been to Medjugorje and have made my decision based on my own personal experiences. There has been NO decision on Medjugorje. You seem to prefer to ignore what the church has said. The decision is not coming out until sometime this year…or so they say. The proof of this is that the Vatican has not forbade anyone from going to Medjugorje. Remember Bayside? I also posted how the bishop of mostar (Zanic) believed in the apparitions until the communist state police threatened him to denounce the apparitions or face imprisonment. Marian apparitions often involve complications at the local diocese, especially in a communist country, and a letter of approval or disapproval from a local bishop does not automatically signal approval or denial. You also cant seem to keep your figures straight on how many bishops there were….first there were 34-35 now there are 11…which is it? Pope benedict also saw good fruits of medjugorje. http://www.medjugorjemiracles.com/2010/08/pope-benedict-xvi-sees-the-good-fruits-of-medjugorje-official-vatican-source/
    Look up in your bible…the framework of a Revelation is always a vision of hidden supernatural events. Although Marian apparitions will always be labeled “personal” revelations and never public revelations by the church. They are no less important to the church. Hence at least 12-13 apparition sites have been officially approved by the church. Effects of Marian apparitions on the Roman Catholic Church have affected the lives of Roman Catholics in several ways:
    -conversion of millions of people to the Roman catholic church
    -construction of some of the largest catholic Marian churches ever
    -formation of Marian movements
    -the spread of devotion to Mary by millions of people
    -declaration of specific marian dogmas and doctrines
    -hundreds of millions of marian pilgrimages
    How do you know John of the Cross didn’t give any new revelation if you have known nothing of his alleged apparitions of the crucified Christ? One of Salvador Dali’s paintings is based on this vision of his. Why do you state” I’m sure he was not guilty in desiring a vision”? Why do you relieve him of desiring a vision ,like you are some kind of personal friend of his, but not the seers of Medjugorje? You sound like you have a double standard to me.
    The Holy Bible also talks about how in the end times your sons and daughters will see signs and wonders. Using your words, “this is very clear and simple to understand.” Sounds like you have lost your faith and hope in what God can do. You seem to put limitations on what God is allowed to do and not do. Hey, he is God and at any moment can shake things up if he wants to. He is not required to inform us of everything that he does. Although we are suppose to read the scriptures we surely should not be bound by just them or then we start sounding like protestants. Quoting scripture John 21:25–Everything that Jesus ever said and did is not all in the Holy Bible. The world itself would not be able to hold all of the books that would have to be written. Do you believe in any of the approved apparition sites? Have you ever thought that humanity needs help and God has chosen to send Mary to help lead people back to her son Jesus. It is his right you know. Peace

  • Regina

    How is it that the Blessed Virgin appears to the seers every day?

    • Dianne

      @Regina
      I guess in the same way that Jesus is physically present to us each day in the Eucharist. God can appear to anyone at anytime that he wishes or send a representative like our Mother Mary. I know God loves us all and wants us all to come back to him. Mary plays a big part in revelations in your Holy Bible. Maybe this is part of what she is suppose to do to help mankind turn back to her son Jesus.
      Peace

    • JAC

      Regina, She doesn’t so listen to what Pope Francis said. He said we need to read our Bibles and Mary is not a post master who gives daily messages.
      I have seen Ivan go on stage. Yes on stage and have an apparition. Very convenient to have one on stage and with an audience.
      Have a very close look at the seers in apparition. It is ‘staged’.
      Have you seen the Vicka Flinch? If not, google it and then listen to the lie when she is caught out. She says “The Virgin was dropping baby Jesus.” REALLY?
      Listen to the messages. They are all the same. Thousands of messages all the same. The constant “pray for priests” is soaking in the brains of the people who follow Medjugorje to the point where they do not trust our priests.
      Yes, I know there have been some bad priests, but there are more good ones.

      It only takes one mistake to prove it wrong because God is NEVER wrong.

  • john konnor

    @ diane

    ..i think you should familiarize yourself with the story of Chicken Little…
    Did you ever hear of Chicken Little, how she
    disturbed a whole neighborhood by her foolish
    alarm?

    Well, Chicken Little was running about in a
    gentleman’s garden, where she had no business to
    be : she ran under a rose-bush, and a leaf fell on her
    tail ; so she was dreadfully frightened, and ran away
    to Hen Pen.

    ” O Hen Pen,” said she, ” the sky is falling ! ”
    Why, Chicken Little, how do you know it ? ”
    ” O, I heard it with my ears, I saw it with my eyes,
    and part of it fell on my tail.” ” Come, then,” says

    Hen Pen, ” let us run as fast as we can.”

    So they ran till they came to Duck Luck. ” O
    Duck Luck,” says Hen Pen, ” the sky is falling ! ”
    ” Why, how do you know it ? ” says Duck Luck.
    Chicken Little told me.” ” Chicken Little, how
    do you know it ? ” “I heard it with my ears, I
    saw it with my eyes, and part of it fell on my tail ”
    ” O, let us run ! ” says Duck Luck.

    And they went on till they came to Goose Loose.
    ” O Goose Loose ! ” says Duck Luck, ” the sky is
    falling.” ” Why, Duck Luck,” says Goose Loose,
    ” how do you know it ? ” Says Duck Luck, ” Hen
    Pen told me.” ” Hen Pen, how do you know it ? ”
    ” Chicken Little told me.” ” Chicken Little, how
    do you know it ? ” ” O, I heard it with my ears, I
    saw it with my eyes, and part of it fell on my tail ! ”
    u Run, run ! as fast as you can,” says Goose Loose*
    And away they went till they came to

    Turkey Lurkey. ” O Turkey Lurkey ! ” says
    Goose Loose, ” the sky is falling ! ” ” Why,” says
    Turkey Lurkey, ” Goose Loose, how do you know
    it ? ” Says Goose Loose, ” Duck Luck told me.”
    ” Duck Luck, how do you know it ? ” Says Duck
    Luck, ” Hen Pen told me.” ” Hen Pen, how do
    you know it ? ” Says Hen Pen, ” Chicken Little
    told me.” ” Chicken Little, how do you know it ? ”
    ” How can I help knowing it ? ” says Chicken Lit-
    tle ; “I heard it with my ears, I saw it with my eyes,
    and part of it fell on my tail ! ” ” O, come, let us
    run ! ” says Turkey Lurkey. And away they all
    went till they met with

    Fox Lox. ” O Fox Lox ! ” says Turkey Lur-
    key, “the sky is falling!” “Who told you?”
    says Fox Lox. Says Turkey” Lur key, “Goose
    Loose told me.” ” Goose Loose, who told you?”
    ” Duck Luck told me.” ” Duck Luck, who told
    you?” “Hen Pen told me.” “Hen Pen, who
    told you ? ” ” Chicken Little told me.” ” Chick-
    en Little, how do you know it ? ” ” O, I heard it
    with my ears, 1 saw it with my eyes, and part of it
    fell on my tail ! ” ” Make haste ! ” says Fox Lox,
    ” and all come into my den ”

    Fox Lox opened the door, and in went Turkey
    Lurkey. As she went in, Fox Lox bit off her
    head, threw it one way, and the body another.
    Then went in Goose Loose. Fox Lox cut off her
    head, and threw her in. Then came Duck Luck.
    Fox Lox did the same by her. Then came Hen
    Pen. Fox Lox bit off her head, and threw it one
    way, and the body the other. Then came Chicken
    Little. Fox Lox caught hold of her, and eat her
    all up, and then finished his supper with the rest,
    and all this from the foolish fright of Chicken
    Little.

    ..as it mentions in the song of songs…”My dove in the clefts of the rock, in the hollow places of the wall, shew me thy face, let thy voice sound in my ears: for thy voice is sweet, and thy face comely. [15] Catch us the little foxes that destroy the vines: for our vineyard hath flourished.”

    [15] Catch us the little foxes: Christ commands his pastors to catch false teachers, by holding forth their fallacy and erroneous doctrine, which like foxes would bite and destroy the vines.
    ..beware the foxes

  • JAC

    Hi Dianne, You say let’s call it a ‘spirited debate’.
    Ok. But I don’t know if I feel very comfortable about this. I am very comfortable if I knew you REALLY did want to know the ‘truth’. If I knew you were open and prepared to see that maybe you can be wrong about ‘who’ really is giving messages in Medjugorje? But I feel this is not the case. Anyway, I will try and go through your questions and statements with my complete honesty and knowledge.

    I see you said on Nov 24th “Anyone here who says anything negative about Medjugorje without having been there, is no one to be listened to, because they have no experience with the place.”
    I think that is unfair, but anyway you will be pleased to know that I am worth listening to because I have been there!’
    What is more, I am an example of one who can say “I was wrong.”
    I can say I was wrong, because I did once believe in Medjugorje. I only believed because I only read what the promoters wrote. But through forums/blogs I was shown differently. I then did my own personal research as I was wanting to become close to God and I knew if I was listening to words from satan it was going to have a reverse effect.
    Funny, at the time, I felt I was moving closer to God, as following Medjugorje made me ‘feel good’. But I can look back now and realise this ‘feel good’ was a ‘false’ feeling. The truth was I was becoming distrustful to our church and priests. Yes. This is the fruits of Medjugorje.

    You say you based your decision on your ‘personal experience’.
    I base my decision on ALL the facts.
    Yes, I know the ‘good fruits’ but I know the BAD fruits too. God is good, ALL good and I have no doubt what so ever these good fruits is the king of deceiver’s way of deceiving the faithful.
    To have proper discernment, you must not ignore the bad fruits or the lies of the seers.
    To say ‘good fruits’. If you have a bag of tomatoes but one is rotten, they all become rotten.

    Seeing your post on Nov 24, you say you ‘saw miracles’.
    This I am very sorry, because I am 100% convinced what you saw were ‘false wonders’.
    Matthew 24
    24 for false Christs and false prophets will arise and provide great signs and wonders, enough to deceive even the elect, if that were possible.

    2 Thessalonians 2:9
    9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders,

    Now while I think I know the words of the Gospel quite well, I am not going to say I know it perfectly well. So Dianne, you said “The Holy Bible also talks about how in the end times your sons and daughters will see signs and wonders.”
    Wasn’t this said as a warning? Or was it in a positive way somewhere? Because to my knowledge it was as a warning as it is written in Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians. To me “this is very clear and simple to understand.”

    Dianne, you said “There has been NO decision on Medjugorje.” Did you not read the ‘official’ letter from the Bishop of Mostar in which I posted on 12th Jan?

    The link you posted is from someone promoting their book.
    There is no use showing links that are from promoters, they mean nothing. You need to show what the church says, this carries weight.
    I am sorry to have to say but you are wrong about the Bishop’s duty. A letter of approval or disapproval from a local bishop DOES automatically signal approval or denial. THIS IS THE BISHOP’S JOB. NOT THE VATICAN’S.
    34 out of 35 and 11 Bishops have said NO to Medjugorje. Both are correct. Two different inquests.

    You ask “How do you know John of the Cross didn’t give any new revelation?”
    Quite simple. Because he too with catechism said there is no more to tell. He would NOT give new revelations and say there are NO new revelations. Would he?
    There is a difference in ‘desiring’ a vision for love of God and desiring a vision to prove something.
    I desire to see God, but not for any new revelation. Can you see what I mean?

    It is ridiculous to say I put limitations on what God is allowed to do and not do. I have not lost faith and hope in what God can do. It is quite the contrary. I am NOT looking for ‘signs’. The only sign I will look for is His Final coming. But it seems people who believe in Medj and Garabandal are looing for signs. :(

    John 21:25 says there are many things Jesus did, but it is not possible to write it all.
    Yes, BUT He did tell us all we need to know. Do you really believe He didn’t? Because believe He didn’t tell us everything, you go against our faith.
    I am bound by ‘only’ scritures, because that is all I need to know. Anything else eg. from saints are reminders of what Jesus said and taught us. There are no more ‘new’ revelations. Theses seem to be ONLY from the false prophets.

    Yes. I believe in the ‘approved’ apparition sites.
    Oh yes. Humanity does need the help of God.
    Jesus, by His crucifixion was our saving help. We should need no more. But He did send His Holy mother to remind us to pray for sinners.
    So please pray for me.

    I would like to finish with what you posted on Nov 24th. You said “Pope John Paul II already accepted Medjugorje as true so it doesn’t matter if Pope Frances does not.”
    Can you see how sad this is?
    Firstly. No where is it said in ‘official’ documents that JP11 approved Medjugorje. Nowhere! This is so wrong of the promoters to say JP11 said something in which he didn’t. Just think. If he did, Medjugorje would be approved, but I have shown ‘official’ documents saying otherwise.
    Secondly. For you to say ‘it doesn’t matter if Pope Francis doesn’t accept’, is exactly what I said earlier. The fruits of Medjugorje is disobedience, mistrust in our priests and church!

    Remember: What is from God is good, so don’t ignore what is clearly not good.
    Remember: To listen to our Pope is like listening to Christ as Christ is our Church. And Our Holy Father is saying…”Mary is “not a postmaster of the post office sending out messages every day.” and “purported visions of Mary can lead people away from God”

    I sincerely hope this will help you in your discernment.

  • Regina

    The commission will take a vote on January 17 on Medjugorje, and then turn the results over to Pope Francis.

  • Regina

    I
    wonder what the outcome will be.

  • Regina

    One thing I really wonder about, why are all the messages pretty much the same

    in other apparations there were warnings like at Fatama and LaSalette? Look at

    the state of the world today.

  • JAC

    “Evangelii Gaudium, Apostolic Exhortation” of Pope Francis, 2013
    This is a paragraph in which he said….

    ” Fifty years after the Second Vatican Council, we are distressed by the troubles of our age and far from naive optimism; yet the fact that we are more realistic must not mean that we are any less trusting in the Spirit or less generous. In this sense, we can once again listen to the words of Blessed John XXIII on the memorable day of 11 October 1962: “At times we have to listen, much to our regret, to the voices of people who, though burning with zeal, lack a sense of discretion and measure. In this modern age they can see nothing but prevarication and ruin … We feel that we must disagree with those prophets of doom who are always forecasting disaster, as though the end of the world were at hand. In our times, divine Providence is leading us to a new order of human relations which, by human effort and even beyond all expectations, are directed to the fulfilment of God’s superior and inscrutable designs, in which everything, even human setbacks, leads to the greater good of the Church”.

  • Regina

    Does that mean that we should not listen to the warnings of our Lady
    or be concerned, be it true apparitions…………….

  • Regina

    I dont mean Medjugorie

  • JAC

    Hello Regina,
    We do live in such confusing times.
    There are so many ‘allege’ apparitions happening at the moment. Jesus warned us of many false prophets. We do not have to believe even the true apparitions. Reason is because even the true apparitions tell us nothing different to what Jesus told us.

    If the Mother of God did truly come with a message, we should listen. But be warned, satan can and does disguise himself as the spirit of light. Scriptures tell us this!
    Personally, I just stick with scriptures, words of the saints and very importantly to listen to our pope.

    Can I ask you. What warnings of Our Lady are you referring to?

    Should we be concerned? We are human, sometimes it can be hard not to be concerned or worried. But how many times did Jesus say “Do not be afraid.”
    We are better off not being worried or too concerned as if we feel too much like this, we are not putting our trust in Jesus.
    We don’t know His plan completely. But think. He did NOT hang on that cross to send doom to us.

  • JAC

    BTW. La Salette might be an ‘approved’ apparition. But a lot of the later messages are NOT approved.

  • Regina

    Fatima and Lourdes

  • Regina

    Sorry I mean the warnings given at Fatima AND LaSalette I
    would not like to go into it , for fear that I might error
    in some way…..but I have read articles on the events. I will
    close off here as it is prayer time .

    God Bless

  • JAC

    Regina, going by memory. I believe the approved message of La Salette is asking the world not to blaspheme and to keep the Sabbath day. Because of the message it did change people’s way of talk.
    After Our Lady had finished giving her message in La Salette, my understanding is that sadly the children may have been visited by the deceiver disguised as Mary.
    When you read the later messages, they contradict the gospel. They also have the same fear/warnings like the other false prophets. Forecasting doom. This is one example which the alleged Virgin said…
    “Woe to the inhabitants of the earth! God will exhaust His wrath upon them and no one will be able to escape so many afflictions together.” Total contradiction to our faith and Gospel. I can show many examples.

    I strongly suggest to let go of ‘anything’ that has messages of fear as we have a Merciful Jesus who loves us and will come again in His “unfathomable Divine Mercy.”

    I hope this helps.

  • Ciaran O Riordan

    Just one point. People rely don’t understand what is meant by supernatural. If i see something. That is not from this world like Our Lady, Jesus, An angle, The sun dancing. I an uneducated man may think it is supernatural. Who would blame me. When the Church states that it is not proven Supernatural. She is not saying that noting happened, but that it is not proven to be direct intervention of God. So it my be good angels, it may be something we cannot understand. So if i go about saying that Our Lady appeared when the Church which is Our Mother, said it is not proven. I place an enormous responsibility on my shoulder.

    When a Doctor makes a diagnoses s a serious condition, and gives a proscription for it. I would be very slow to contradict his advice, saying to the sick Child i know better then the doctor.

    The Church has not approved the supposed appearances,Listen now to Pope Francis he will set everything right. Any good you received at Medjugorje will be better. and if we have been deceived in any manner Our Blessed Mother will see us right. If we obey the Church.

    God Bless all

    Ciaran

  • we are people arguing over medjugorje if its true god will approve it …we are messengers nothing else people talk of authority on medjugorje and the church of rome ….. when will you see the lord will take care of it .. medjugorje is powerful not more powerful than rome …. pray hope and dont worry

  • Bérengère

    Lots of evil through this comment thread. But not so many have taken the time to read some messages from medjugorje, quite repetitive as we are quite stubborn little human buggers. The messages can be sum up in 5 points: daily mass, monthly confession, daily rosary, fast on Wednesdays and Fridays, read bible and pray pray pray! Where exactly is the satanic message? No one forces you to “follow” the apparitions, actually no one does, people travel to medjugorje to get touch in their hearts, receive those messages and get back to live a life oriented towards holiness, like st Thomas the need to touch and physically feel, nothing new there. That’s it! Between choosing an apparition and mass, the message is clear: mass first, Jesus first all the way! Through the bible and various apparitions, Mary is the messenger to get us back to Jesus. We are fragile, our faith is frail, many people need this reminder. Don’t get around spitting evil thoughts. If you don’t need those reminders good on you but don’t sin with over superior thoughts of yourself. And keep in mind, revelations by Jesus have warned us against evil talk against his mother. Don’t spread evil venom. If your faith is strong, encourage others to live their faith towards holiness! God bless!

  • Celia

    I totally agree with the last post!! I’m not catholic but LIVE AND LOVE the history and
    Messages of medjugoria since 1981!! The only inspiration from this PHENOMENAL
    event is to follow JESUS and prepare for His Coming! Repent and pray!!

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