Saatchi displays blasphemous homosexual nativity showing St Joseph leading a pregnant man to Bethlehem

The blasphemous attacks on Christianity continue in London with Saatchi displaying a blasphemous homosexual nativity showing St Joseph leading a pregnant man to Bethlehem. The fact that the rich and powerful single out Christianity for attack and not other religions shows that they see the divine truths of Christianity as truly significant for the human race, otherwise they’d just ignore us. These secularists and athiests just can’t leave Christians alone. The history of the Church shows time and again such hate can tip over into love for Our Lord and the Blessed Virgin Mary. We must pray for all those involved in this blasphemous homosexual nativity.

Saatchi blasphemy

 

 

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132 comments to Saatchi displays blasphemous homosexual nativity showing St Joseph leading a pregnant man to Bethlehem

  • Yes, this is repulsive.

    I’m surprised it wasn’t Joseph grabbing Mary round the neck “to make her focus”.

  • Joseph Matthew

    There seems to be a worrying trend of the rich and powerful ( Saatchi, Harvey Weinstein etc) ridiculing our cherished beliefs.

  • confused

    Not sure why you think this has anything to do with homosexuality.

    The pregnant man looks very much like a homage to Saatchi and Saatchi’s iconic 1970′s advert for the FPA.

    http://www.creativereview.co.uk/cr-blog/2012/january/dad-1970-pregant-man

    Your other points stand though.

    • confused

      hadn’t spotted the flower

      • It isn’t actually a flower. It’s a grubby window.

        Also, it’s not Charles Saatchi there anymore. The company threw him and his brother out in the 90s. I’d hate to think his reputation would be tarnished in any way.

        • Rob

          Its a grubby window. Funny how we were all so determined to see a bit of muck on a window as a flower because it supported the idea this was about gay marriage.

          • Deacon Nick Donnelly

            Yes, we should have just focused on the pregnant man placed in the position of the Virgin Mary with her betrothed in a nativity scene. Deacon Nick

          • Rifleman819

            Rob ,
            So you’re volunteering to carve some figures showing the life of Mohammed then? With window muck as well…………wow!
            We award you the Secular Medal of Rationalism, 1st Klass.
            Soooo brave!

          • Balance

            Rifleman.
            For someone who seems to have an issue with their religion being discriminated against, you seem very keen to have a another religion mocked.
            How does that make you any better then the people you have taken offence from? Or does it in fact make you no better than them?
            The solution to discrimination is not to propagate more hate.

  • confused

    Charles Saatchi is of course not an atheist. He and his brother are Jewish and given that they founded an Orthodox Synagogue in London in Maida Vale/St Johns Wood it might be a reasonable assumption that they are religious people.

  • Rifleman819

    Of course there will be a similar effigy erected by Saatchi during the next Ramadan about Mummahamad and his flight from Mecca to Medina in 622AD won’t there?

  • Rifleman819

    Deacon Nick ,
    As a Jew Charles Saatchi seems to have forgotten Daniel 5 :( 1-6, 25-8)….. and the import of Rembrandt’s stunning painting of ” Belshazzar’s Feast”…it stands as a metaphor for what is surely what will be the epitaph of our ruling “chatterati” in Britain and elsewhere in the West.

    They are past stricture by Christians…………..the street level corrective will come from another source.It will be catastrophic……….and it will be sooner in my opinion than anyone expects.

  • Rifleman819

    Deacon Nick ,

    And………..if this had been put in a Gallery window along the Nevsky Prospeckt in St.Petersburg or in a similar venue in Moscow….I can guarantee that it would have been on display for less than 20 minutes.

    And certain persons would be looking at cells in a gulag somewhere pretty soon thereafter.

  • ms Catholic state

    Ugly. And this man is a specialist in art?!!

    The re-education never ends. You vill believe…you vill.

  • ms Catholic state

    I hope an act of reparation is being organised against this. Catholics should protest…and pray the Rosary near this uglified ‘art’. With a real and beautiful Nativity scene of course. We must start to act….not simply complain.

  • Ian

    If Christians would stop trying to impose their world view on everyone, we would leave you alone, but until then …..

    • Rifleman819

      Ian ,

      Does that apply to Islam as well? As when the NSS/BHA took legal action to High Court level over Catholic schools in Richmond?

      And with a Muslim Academy in Blackburn…their action was precisely ……….err…nothing? Why was that , perchance?

      You tend to leave Islam alone don’t you ?

      Not very consistent is it?……………rather ,it is utterly cowardly and craven in the extreme.

      BHA/NSS will have my fullest admiration when they launch strident demos in Whitechapel, the West Midlands, the NW and other places against a whole raft of Islamic policies and practices that they have launched at Christians.
      But the leadership of these organisations seems reluctant to grasp the palm of secular martyrdom..This troubles me.If you believe as fervently as you say….then where is the self sacrifice to go with it?
      Otherwise it’s all mouth, yellow tee shirts and brown trousers isn’t it?

      • Ian

        Of course, and have said so many times, in fact many Muslims agree, the noisy ones don’t, but many do.

        All mouth and trousers? Really? I think trousers bit should be addressed to the Swiss Guard, at least they have baggy trousers.

        If you want a comment from the BHA or the NSS I am not their spokesman so I suggest you address your comments directly to them.

    • ms Catholic state

      Actually Ian….it is secularists/pagans who are trying to impose their world view on everybody else. Soon humanity will relearn that to break the natural law leads to cultural collapse.

      Anyhow…..Satan knows the One True Faith…and that’s why he targets us. No point going after a false religion…when the True One is readily at hand.

      • Ian

        No we aren’t. What we want is ALL religious influence out of politics and does include Islam. Secularism just means a level playing field for all.

        You trot out comments such as ‘natural law, with such regularity, shouldn’t you have put RC doctrine, teaching or dogma instead?

        And as far as ‘Satan’ is concerned I’m surprised that with your fear of this mythical beast you manage to get out of bed in the mornings in case ‘Old Nick’ (not Deacon Nick) is hiding under your bed and grabs you by the ankles.

        This idea that ‘YOU’, or ‘Christians’ are targetted is just pure solipsism. People ‘target’ you because they don’t want you trying to impose your religious dogma onto them; we respect your right to believe in whatsoever you want, however we do not have to respect in what you believe. Neither do we have to accept your belief that you have the right to impose it on us.

        Simples!

        • Well you personally may be an advocate for anarchy and barbarism (which is what secularism leads to), but be thankful that religious people are here to bring spiritual nourishment.

        • Rifleman819

          Ian

          If what you say is true ….how come there were not anti-Muslim academy demos by NSS/BHA outside Blackburn and Darwen LEA Offices as there were anti-Catholic school protests by NSS/BHA outside Richmond Borough Council offices?

          We both know the answer don’t we?

          So what you are saying is ….”we will take you on but we are running terrified of Islam.”
          Not very impressive is it?
          When the BHA/NSS rhetoric matches the equal action on the ground, then your words might have credence.

          • Ian

            My reading of the press reports of these incidents were that the BHA/NSS supported local parents, nothing more. Neither the BHA nor the NSS were, to the best of my knowledge, the instigators.

            Islam is a five letter word, Muslim a six letter words, I have no fear of words. It is what people do in the name of their faith or religion that counts, irrespective of which it is. And, Yes, I have read the Koran,

            The problem lies with Politicians who are scared of offending the ‘sensibilities of others’. Ibn Wariq said that Islam has to be treated like a disobedient dog that barks too loud. You must hit it across the nose with a newspaper until it learn not to bark. It may take a long time.

        • Lynda

          No, you want your false atheistic, materialist, relativist, positivist, tyrannical ideology to control all our lives, even the most sacred, such as the rearing and education of our children. You want to discard the objective moral law, which cannot be abused or dictated by anyone in power, and replace it with the arbitrary mandates of the powerful who espouse a false ideology to the control and detriment of the person and mankind.

          • Ian

            As a Catholic you should know more about tyrannical ideology than I do.

            You talk about the ‘objective moral law’, why don’t you say ‘the Catechism of the Catholic Church’? If this applied you would still use the bible to justify the keeping of slaves etc etc.

            Remember Mathew 5:17. The commandments, from you cheery pick those you agree with, are from the 613 commandments laid down in what we call the OT by which the Jews lived their lives. You can’t claim an objective moral law because you’ve already changed it.

            My athesism is false? I can assure you that it isn’t. Neither do I wish to impose it on anyone else, unlike others who would wish the world were either Catholic or Islmaic. I respect your right to belive in whatever you wish, even though I believe that the world would be better off without religion. Carl Sagan was quite correct when he described Earth as ‘this demon haunted world’. Do you realise that the only people who suffer from demonic possession are those who actually believe in demons?

            And if you say that i have no right to impose my beliefs on you, then you have to accept that you have no right to impose your beliefs on anyone else.

        • Joseph Matthew

          “Secularism means a level playing field for all.” Er, except for secularists. Where is George Orwell when you need him?

          • Ian

            For all means exactly what it says!

          • Wake Up England

            Ian:

            Please answer Rifeleman’s question below regarding your connections and affiliation with the BHA and NSS.

            Seems like you’re avoiding an awkward point here – by your silence.

            Please tell us all the truth.

        • Charles

          Now then Ian. You have just contradicted your earlier post that we should address our questions to the NSS. Rifleman has already pointed out that “But you stated once that you were a member of NSS” You seem to be all over the place with your comments. There is no consistency. You blow with the wind. We are willing to debate constructively with secularists. You would be more at home with Pink News.

        • Bob Hayes

          Ian, as you claim God does not exist, then religion – from your perspective – is presumably just a sort of ideology. Religions are merely concepts (based on myth) that nonetheless advocate a particular ordering of society and social relations.

          If that is the case, then you are proposing that some ideologies should be barred from the political arena.

          Who decides which ideologies may engage in politics?

          Are you advocating a form of totalitarianism in which only ‘approved beliefs’ are permitted to engage in political discourse?

          • Ian

            Not at all. We don’t live in North Korea and we have freedom of speach, thought and that includes the freedom of worship, I’ve never stated otherwise.

            Yes, I do not accept the existence of the supernatural, and all mocern religions are based on ancient myths; if you wish to pretend they are real, because there isnot proof that any of theem are, please feel free. However, you do not have the right to impose your particular beliefs onto anyone else. Secularism is just that – keeping religious privilege out of politics.

    • tro

      “If Christians would stop trying to impose their world view on everyone, we would leave you alone, but until then …..”

      So you want to impose on everyone your world view that it’s wrong to impose a religious ‘world view’ on everyone.

  • Kinga Gray - Grzeczynska LLB

    Very sad indeed that Charles Saatchi is stooping so low. Very disappointing really.

    It is in times like this that we realise how precious Christianity is and how much we need to defend the True Faith.

    Eccles:
    Congratulations on your blog today. Very funny. Brought my whole office to laughter.

    Kinga Grzeczynska

  • Lynda

    One of multidinous signs that people are being led by demonic powers.

  • Rifleman819

    Dear All ,

    And what happens if Charles Saatchi receives a personal death threat from not a Christian group but a Muslim one …for insulting the Mother of Jesus as a figure accorded great reverence in the Koran?

    • Deacon Nick Donnelly

      I really hope that doesn’t happen. Deacon Nick

      • Rifleman819

        Dear Deacon Nick ,
        Wholeheartedly agree………but fear works.If hypothetically such a threat was to have been made I’m sure this witty and artistic piece would be whipped out of the window asap.
        We seem to have forgotten the brave refusal of the entire west European press over the Jyllands-Posten “Muhammad” cartoons in 2005/6 to kow-tow to Islamic outrage.
        It wasn’t brave at all because every single major paper across Europe proudly went with editorials effusive in their utter respect for Islam (ps don’t burn out offices down) and condemning the cartoons.

        So the coda really is ……Christians=easy target ….Islam =terrified of.

    • I’m told it is at Saatchi and Saatchi, which is no longer associated with Charles Saatchi. (This rather spoils my previous comment.)

  • You guys!

    Isn’t your religion about forgiveness… Lighten up – it’s actually based on this advert about anti-smoking.
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/12/article-2025319-0B66F60C00000578-666_468x714.jpg

    Have a little Christmas spirit!

    • ConofChi

      Its an advert for the Family Planning Association for anyone, married or single wanting advise on contraception (artificial). More offensive when you THINK about it…..

  • Anna

    Charles Saatchi has no affiliation with the agency. And hasn’t worked there since 1995. Yes let’s send him a death treat to show the loving nature of the Christian religion to get our point across. Fear is the only way they will listen, because no one would take you seriously if actually spoke to them with reason. Of course.

    • Deacon Nick Donnelly

      Thanks for the clarification. No one has suggested Christians should make death threats, which would be abhorrent. The point made by one of the readers is that offensive displays are made about Christian beliefs but not about some other religions. Why is that? Deacon Nick

      • Brighten up!

        It’s a satirical take on a religious holiday. There’s lots of satirical references to other religions in our society. Think of Family Guy, Larry David, Goodness Gracious Me, The Kumars, The Vicar of Dibley… to name a few. It’s not worth throwing your rattle out of the pram over. You’re drawing more attention to it by talking about it. In reality, this is just one window in London at an advertising agency. There’s bigger fish to fry.

        • Rifleman819

          For Brighten up! ,
          OK then ………
          Here’s a jolly dare… ……….take a similar set of models and carve them about the life of Mohammmed.
          Mount on a flat bed truck and drive very slowly round the Whitechapel mosque……to a tape of jingle bells.

          That really will be satirical won’t it?

          Let us know how you get on.

          • Brighten up!

            oh silly, I couldn’t do that – Nobody knows what he looks like. And it wouldn’t be satire as they don’t celebrate christmas. Settle down and polish your rifle – it might cheer you up a bit.

      • Anna

        I can’t speak for all offensive window displays, but I should imagine they choose the Christian nativity scene, because other religions don’t celebrate Christmas; a holiday celebrate by Christians and non Christians.

    • Rifleman819

      For Anna , Sorry ….do you have problems with comprehension?…….read what I had written ….and also Deacon Nick’s very precise summation of the point I was making.

  • Confused nobody

    Guys, this kind of thing does happen in real life! I saw it on this film called Junior!

    http://petegraham.files.wordpress.com/2006/11/arnie_preggers.png

  • That’s one of his more tasteful pieces
    Some of Saatchi’s art (particularly the Chapman Brothers stuff)
    is so sick I honestly think it should be classed as child porn…

    [Moderated. Sorry but this image is so sick I couldn't link to it. I want to throw up]

    …I mean I’m not a prude but…

  • So I take it we’re on “Team Nigella” then?

  • Rifleman819

    Deacon Nick , all ,

    On a related matter to this artwork- and the liberal, lefty, atheist, secular avant-garde bold people ………..we have seen today with Universities UK how soon the forces of humanist/secularism are going to meet with militant Islam on our university campuses.

    The treatment of women. To me this is but one of many “impact areas” where perhaps (perhaps) Christians in Europe can watch how , when and why a titanic struggle begins between the Enlightenment and Islam.
    Who will blink first? I think I know the answer.

  • Rifleman819

    Brighten UP!

    Well why not try Ramadan or Eid al Mubarak then?
    Same fun!
    Go on …..you’d luv to do it…………yes???

    Or maybe ….no?

  • Rifleman819

    For Ian ,
    You said “we would leave you alone……..”
    Then you said you were not a spokesman for either BHA/NSS……..yet you replied to ms catholic state ….using “we ” at least 4 times if I recall……….so are the opinions you voice just yours?,in which case why use “we”?
    Are your opinions here simply yours and yours alone?
    Clarification needed.

    • Wake Up England

      Ian and Rifleman:

      Come on Ian, answer Rifleman’s question. You appear to have turned mysteriously taciturn suddenly, don’t you? The plot, it would appear, is thinning fast.

      • Rifleman819

        Wake Up ,
        Yes-Ian often comes up with quite well argued but wrong end- of -the- stick contributions on these blogs but this time he is , I think , below par.

        But we should make our own stances clear-most of us here are Catholic , a number non-Catholic Christians etc…..all fine but let’s be honest about our background stances and “where we are coming from”.
        And it will be very interesting to see how deep is the commitment of the BHA/NSS on a really secular issue coming to the fore at this very moment.

        The segregation by gender at open public meetings at our universities and colleges.
        This issue has got to be a “core” tenet of these two organisations-what way will they twist and turn?

    • Ian

      Wow! Such persistence. I never thought that I would have Catholics hanging on my every word. Should I be flattered? I think not.

      No problem. I am a member of both the BHA and the NSS, I am not an Officer or official or either organisation, therefore I cannot speak for either, just for myself.

      However, many people on this blog have posted that as an atheist I should keep my atheistic nose out of things that do not concern me, Deacon Nick appears to like robust exchanges. I contribute simply because I fundamentally disagree with much of the content that is posted here; content that is apparently near and dear to Catholics who pick and choose what they would like from the Bible, comment concerning abortion, gay marriage and demonic possession amongst many. And from the comments I have drawn the conclusion that the generic ‘you’, think that ‘you’ have the right to impose your beliefs on everyone else, and there are many, not all of whom post on this blog who disagree, therefore ‘we’. I am not their ‘spokesperson’, merely someone who represents what they have stated they believe.

      For as long as you choose to make these comments then I, or we, will oppose those views.

      Now then children, drink your milk and go to sleep.

      • Rifleman819

        Ian,
        Fine -so you have revealed your hand.No. we don’t “pick and choose” from the Bible actually -read what we as Catholics believe the Bible actually is -and be aware that the early church caused the New Testament to be written in the first place.
        Catholics are themselves aware of those places where allegory , metaphor etc are employed in the OT-something that at first you got gloriously wrong.We are not southern Baptists.
        No fear of robust engagement from anyone I am sure.
        But my point to you about both your organisations still stands…..you (BHA/NSS-not you personally)will never, ever try it on with Islam.No demonstrations or street protests…no “Protest the Caliph”…nothing like that.
        And again …we know why.
        So please never deploy the “equal treatment” line you have evinced in the past…… because it is simply not true.And you know it.
        No one would want to “keep your atheistic nose” out of this blog.
        You are , after all, made in the image and likeness of God…a little lower than the angels.

        • Rifleman819

          Ian ,
          I don’t know whether you have just committed a secular equivalent of heresy………..I only just picked it up.

          You stated “I am not their “spokesperson”, merely someone who represents what they have stated they believe”

          But rationalists , secularists, freethinkers, atheists and humanists don’t have beliefs do they?
          Do I report you to the NSS High Kommand for this heinous lapse into fideism?
          Our secret , eh?

  • frererabit

    Disgraceful putting a pregnant man on a donkey that size.

  • Luke

    Since prayer works, why don’t you just pray about it?

  • Paul Commins

    A Despicable attack on The Holy Family.It doesn’t brighten up any window,it doesn’t represent a Family.

  • Response to poor Ian above: your comment about tree-hugging rather suggests that you don’t really understand what the rest of us are talking about. This isn’t really a blog for beginners.

  • Rifleman819

    Ian ,
    Regarding RISC campaign against Catholic schools in Richmond-you are being disingenuous…it was fronted , organised and staged by the BHA/NSS.
    Fine. Not a problem with that in a democracy..except that a similar level of protest fronted by these two organisations will never ,ever happen against Islamic schools.Let’s have a bit of honesty and glasnost about matters shall we?
    You make a point about imposing views-ok then …let’s be generous…..say the combined total membership of the NSS/BHA is 20,0000.Equally being conservative about the Sunday worship strength of the CoE and RC being roughly 2 million…and disregarding for the moment the pew totals for other Christian denominations……then the organisations you say you have nothing to do with =2% of the active Christian population of the UK.

    This 2% wants to use noisy and often devious methods to specifically attack Christians.Despite your assertion we all know the BHA/NSS will not take on any other religious group-we know this because quite simply-it does not-so don’t pretend an equality of treatment and even-handedness that does exist. A porky is a porky.So with 2% of the active membership of the two largest Christian denominations in the UK …is this the “we” you kept referring to in your posts?

    • Ian

      I’ll take all these ad hominem attacks as a compliment. Troll? Sulking? Believe what you want – you usually do.

      But if you are talking about figures, what percentage of the national population is Roman Catholic? (About 16%?) And of that figure who claim to be Roman Catholic how many truly are? There are many who have contributed to this blog who appear to be openly homosexual, how many are celebate? How many Catholics ignore church teaching on contraception – we know the Blairs don’t, Cherie Blair admitted it on tv, why has the RCC taken no action against them? All this smacks of plain, old fashioned, hypocracy.

      Do you truly believe that paedophile priests, including those have yet to be discovered, are true Roman Catholics including those hidden by the Church itself. What does that make of the Church?

      If you are talking about imposing the views of the BHA or the NSS being unacceptable then perhaps a national referendum would be helpful as whose views were the most popular?. By what percentage do you think you would lose?

      As for your comments regarding the Cathlics school in Richmond, where do you think the complaint came from? I’m not denying for one moment the part played by either the BHA or the NSS, but they did not instigate their action based on fresh air.

      • Rifleman819

        Ian ,

        Whoever said the Blairs are fine examples of Catholicism-I wouldn’t!

        Richmond/Blackburn -where do you think the complaint about Blackburn didn’t come from?? ….the BHA/NSS!

        Paedophile priests-awful ……but equally awful in other denominations…..you would find me chary of some top Catholic boarding schools I fully admit. Our bishops have been spineless in the past in passing the buck -I agree.But terrible though this is …every organisation in Britain -Police , Armed Forces,the Churches, Civil Service -you name it has middle/senior managers lifting carpets to sweep bad news under.
        Referendum-we have one =General election….State help for Church schools since 1902.So how much would any political party like to lose by?
        And how do you fancy income tax at 135% to pay for the 000′s of Church schools the State would have to nationalise? No-brainer.

        • Ian

          What is all this with the BHA and the NSS? The BHA is an organisation that stands up for people like me, people with no religion, atheists if you like, trying to ensure that our rights as citizens are upheld. The NSS is there to try and prevent religious privilege, there’s nothing sinister, unless of coursde you are claiming that by not having your own way you are being discriminated against. There are two sides to every coin.

          The Blairs are fine examples of a cross between Officers of the Court and politicians, however Pope Benedict thought highly enough to meet with them personally, and that was after the documentary. So, where would you lay the responsibility. And of course with such a high profile why wouldn’t the Vatican use him??

          I agree that it happens in all faiths, it’s just that the Vatican seems unwilling to accept the level of homosexuality amongst its priests, or unable to do anything about it: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm And the RCC appears to be the worst of the bunch. The point is that religions se themselves up, without any justification, on the highest pedestal – and the higher they set themselves the further they have to fall. It’s obvious that Pope Francis isn’t a reformer and when the velvet glove comes off there could be fun.

          Having said that, in the early 1980′s a serving Police officer , who just happened to be the son of the Chief Constable of the force in which he served, was sentenced to 3 years for theft of £1k from a local business whilst on duty. So yes, we all have our skeletons. (The Chief was actually mentioned in the OT, strong fella, got mixed up with some woman call Del.. or something like that).

          135% income tax? That’s a bit steep. No-brainer? I think not. But of course the current smash and grab movement by all religions to ensnare young children and enfold them into their particular faith are the ‘mots du jour’. I f any particular faith was more ‘truerer’ that any others why not leave it until the children had developed emotionally and psychologically so that they could make their own decision? But we all know that’s not going to happen.

          • Rifleman819

            Ian,
            Facts are inconvenient here.We had a vote on Church schools.It was the 1902 Education Act.Can you tell me which UK government would be rich enough to close all church schools….nationalise them and reopen them the next day?.
            I hold no candle whatsoever for the Blair’s……but does the Methodist church upbraid prominent naughty Methodists who stray from Methodism?…..and so on with the various religions and their public figures?
            And the NSS with someone like Stephen Fry etc etc.
            And you claim a mandate….fine….the NSS/BHA fields a candidate in a General Election who stands on a platform to abolish ALL religious state schools……put that to the people and see what result is returned.
            You mentioned abortion….to many , not just Christians , it is the wilful murder of the unborn…..yet on the basis of your argument about paying- in part- for church schools…….people who detest abortion have to fund it on the NHS via taxation and NI contributions.
            That is parliamentary democracy- however flawed it is.
            But I wait the day when we have public anti – Muslim schools demos led by the NSS with the same gusto as it has fronted anti-Catholic ones. It will not happen.

          • Ian

            Rifleman, as far as funding is concerned we could start by withdrawing all religious financial support, no doubt that would annoy the unelected Baroness Warsi and her rotund colleague, the Rt Hon Eric Pickles.

            Furthermore all religions are businesses otherwise they couldn’t function financially, so the next step would be to treat them as such, within the law of cousre.
            Things like ‘Mission Statements’, financial accounting so on and so forth, and of course paying taxes – Now there’s a thing. The CofE admits it’s asets and investments are somewhere in the region of £5.8bn, that must be chicken feed compared to the Vatican.

            And look at the way religions are expanding their empires. The more schools, the more children, the more central funding. That only seems fair to me, but perhaps I’m biased.

          • Ian

            With regards to abortion, we will probably disagree over this point form now to the end of time, whenever that is. My point, and the point of many, is that the choice, right or wrong, should be left to women. Men should not have the right to interfere with any woman’s reproductive system.

            Thankfully, marital rape is now accepted as such, at least in the UK. If you are stating that a man has the absolute right to have sexual intercourse with his wife regardless of the outcome, and that woman is forced to carry that pregnancy to term, irrespective of the risk to the woman’s health, then you should think most carefully.

            You, as a thinking human being, are stating that irrespective of the risk no foetus can be aborted?

            And no-one on this blog has yet attempted to answer the question that I raised made several times before. If a fertilised human egg, is ‘given’ a soul at the point of conception, what happens to the souls of the 30% of fertilized eggs that self-abort?

        • Ian

          A further example of what I mean by religious privilege, and one that relates directly to the Police, and more precisely the former West Riding Constabulary. Under the Hopetown intersection of the M62, which is situated mid-way between Normanton and Castleford lies the former mining community of Loscoe. From one terrace of about twelve houses five young men joined the above mentioned police force. All attained the rank of Superintendent or above, all were Roman Catholics, all attending the same church. This was the time, certainly in the North of England, that to be a Catholic and in the Police gave you a leg up on the promotion ladder. Thankfully those days are long gone, and we now have the fabled level playing field, which of course should apply across the board.

          • Rifleman819

            Ian ,
            This could well be true………I would not doubt it.Very few men from comprehensive schools become officers in the Life Guards.

            And how many Lodges are associated with the Police Service?

          • Ian

            How many men want to be Officers in the Life Guards?

            I haven’t the faintest idea. But how many Officers in the Life Guards achieved promotion because they were Catholic? That is the point I was making, but I am sure you knew that.

            As for the square and compass, that’s a moot point. Many enquiries were made but few answers found, although from the 1970′s onwards as the command tructure changed there appeared to be fewer. One idea they had in our Force was to have an ‘Officer’s Mess’, Mess Dress an’ all. Our repsonse? Don’t they all!

  • Rifleman819

    Deacon Nick , all

    BHA/NSS saved from the need to be brave on gender segregation…apparently Universities UK have just withdrawn their policy guidance on gender separation in public meetings at HE venues.

  • Wake Up England

    Ian:

    We’re waiting for your answer to Rifleman’s question.

    Why the sudden silence? Are you on a Retreat?

    • Rifleman819

      For Wake-Up,

      Can’t quite delve Ian’s mood at the moment.

      I am genuinely not sure in relation to this particular blog whether he is responding in a personal capacity or whether (consciously or not)he is voicing views attributable to the wider NSS/BHA?

      He is not normally this reticent.

      A mystery.

      • Wake Up England

        Rifleman:

        Ian’s been seen-through and is sulking as a consequence. Not, perhaps, the most intelligent response to a pertinent discussion.

        Ian’s new-found sullen silence rather reminds me of Anne Lardueur. Pathetic!

        I’m afraid, Ian, what remained of your dubious credibility has just completely evaporated. Another one bites the dust.

    • Charles

      WUE and Riflesman

      Ian has done a runner because he does not have an answer. He keeps contradicting himself and makes things up as he goes along. Typical troll.

      • Wake Up England

        Charles:

        Yes. You’ve hit the nail on the head.

        Trolls tend to get more than they bargained for on this blog.

        • Ian

          I think if I was a troll the good Deacon would have permanently excluded me by now.

          • Rifleman819

            Ian,
            I actually agree with you here.
            You are quite a good bloke and our demons need someone of quality to toast over a spit at 451degrees F for all eternity ..”………!

          • Ian

            451F? The point of autoignition? Are you promoting Ray Bradbury now?

            If I ever come across any demon, large or small, I’ll gladly point him/her/it in your direction. It seems to me that would be more fitting, because Catholics appear to have a greater affinity with Demons than atheists.

  • Francisca

    Would anyone mind telling me if anyone in London is going to be outside this window protesting? Is it street level or inside?

  • Forgive

    Saatchi need to ask for forgiveness as Jesus does not take the mocking of his mother lightly. Saatchi should take it down and put an apology in its place. I am Catholic and I am very offended by this scene. It is disgraceful to mock the mother of God in order to make money.

  • James

    Just to let you know Saatchi and Saatchi are now removing this blaspheme due to continued pressure from many Christian Brothers and Sisters. Thank you Deacon Nick for letting us know.

  • Rifleman819

    Ian,
    Atheists and demons….choose from……Robespierre, Stalin , Pol Pot…….and indeed many of the servants of atheistic secularism to be found c1917- 1990 in the legions of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia………whose joint ideologies probably topped 100, 000,000 people in eighty years.
    Religion and Regiments is a fascinating topic actually…….try for a commission in the Cameronians, as it was , as a Teague….you would not get far………
    Regarding abortion….but since as you seem to hold that (correct me if I have that wrong) we are all just bits of meat with an electro-magnetic pulse going through us….it hardly matters whether males have any say whatsoever.
    But it is an index of how far human society has fallen that eugenic war-crime experiments conducted at Treblinka or Dachau…prosecuted at Nuremberg…….now meet a Gallic shrug. The brave New World where the created has tried to replace the Creator………….with utterly joyous results, of course.

    • Ian

      Rifleman,

      Evil people do evil things, good people do good things but for a good person to do evil takes religion. There are many who might disagree but Stalin, Pol Pot, etc did not do what they did in the name of atheism. We can all go further, these two followers of the religion of peace who killed Lee Rigby killed in the name of Islam, in spite of the apologists protestations. One of Africa’s poster boys, Robert Mugabe, is hosted by other African leaders and welcomed by the Pope. There are huge numbers of examples from the Borgias, some of whom I understand became Popes.

      But the issues you raise just go to show that it is religion that is the great driving force, and I can’t see anything other than an uneasy peace, certainly in some areas for many years.

      A fairly crude way of putting it, but, Yes, I do not accept what some call ‘the ghost in the machine’, It is our evolved brains that holds the personality, our likes and dislikes, our emotions, our ability to know the difference between right and wrong – even our ability to define what exactly we consider to be right and wrong that makes us what we are. And I still maintain that women have the right to control their own reproductive systems, and no outside agency, either as an individual or organisation has the right to intefere.

      You’re an historian, I find it strange that you have chosen to ignore the influence of religion in our history, the conflicts that could not have occurred with a religious input. As for the Gallic shrug, I haven’t seen it. When I have seen is evidence for evolution, layers of evidence from the Olduvai Gorge of the development of mankind from the most ancient of our ancestors to homo sapiens up to the present day. As for the Creation, perhaps there will never be an answer that can be proven to be correct, then that’s fine but I could never accept without verifiable proof that there has ever been an supernatural input anywhere.

      If God exists in the real world, in the same we that you or I do, then the boundaries of human knowledge has been pushed back by many degrees of magnitude. hOwever, if God is real and exists in this world then he/she/it must be bound by the laws of physics.

      • Rifleman819

        Ian,
        I have seen it-religion indeed……but this where we differ…..why do we resist tyranny? Take the July plot in 1944 against Hitler….virtually the entire group of key plotters were Catholic and Protestant members of the Order of Malta or the JohanniterOrdern.Not one of them came from any other coherent grouping.
        I find that significant. Of course religion has played a part in world history ….but so have the man made religions of National Socialism and Marxist -Leninism. Behead Charles 11…..get Cromwell……guillotine Louis XVI ….get Robespierre….shoot Nicholas II…get Stalin.
        Marie Stopes saw that she had the right to interfere, didn’t she? Her legacy ensures that 200,000 children in Britain per year are “interfered” with as they are hacked to pieces in the womb.
        So Ian ,
        When the nice Mrs Mengele with the slight Austrian accent tells you it is time for your pill in your OAP Home ……let’s all do our bit for human eugenics…..coming our way in society sooner than we all think! I am afraid.

        • Rifleman819

          Ian ,
          To continue….might there be some dismay in the beautiful, determinist Britain of the future…..when Sonderkommando 666 removes the useless halves of the Dawkins/Attenborough households for eugenicist processing…or eliminates the top homosexual echelons of the BHA/NSS…….as not fulfilling their reproductive quota for the replacement of the master race.?
          One man in Nazi Germany organised a politically effective resistance to this Brave New World…….he was Clemens Von Gallen RC bishop of Munster…..who managed to halt the Nazi euthanasia T4 programme….for a time.
          Nope…sorry …the gulags, concentration camps,re-education centres don’t spring from Christianity-that’s for sure.
          In 1942The Third Reich stretched from the Pyrenees to the gates of Moscow…..by May 1945 ……it extended to either end of the Berlin U-Bahn.
          I was in the Russian Federation very recently……..the churches …filling rapidly …….in 1937 Stalin shot nearly 60,000 priests……….what is rotting in StPetersburg today? The frontages of former USSR regional ministeries as the heraldry of Marxist -Leninism crumbles to an unloved dust.
          Man-the master of all things? Of course! He must be ….the Guardian, after all, all says so…….

        • Ian

          We resist tyranny, because it is tyrannical, and the fact that those involved in the July plot doesn’t necessarity mean that they were ‘nice people’, there is no evidence to suggest that they were anything other than die-hard Nazis who just wanted a new leader. Same book just a different dust jacket.

          But how do youwork out that National Socialism, Cromwell, Robespierre etc were the basis for religious belief. Hitler et al may have been ‘glorified’, and people may have looked to them as leaders but they were by no means deified. Yes they were tyrants but not ‘Gods’.

          As for Marie Stopes, what she interferred with was the burden placed on women of virtually continual pregnancy throughout their marriages, or are you in favour of the status quo that existed in those days? Do you consider a wife to be your sex slave, for your right to have unprotected sex where ever you choose, to impregnate your wife letting her bear the burdan of the prenancy and the resppnsibiltu of bringing up the children, and probably dying young? Marie Stopes, fought against the Establishmentuntil enl9ightened men saw reason. Why do Catholics, such as yourself, want to wind the clock back to the Dark Ages?

          Secularism and Humanism are not National Socialism, Communism and I’m surprised that you would sink so low as to try and make that link.

          Methink thou dost protest too much!

          • Rifleman819

            Ian ,

            Not saying the plotters were.100% whiter than white..Von Stauffenberg was a Catholic right-wing aristocrat who believed in a Greater Germany.He did not however believe in gassing Jews.

            The point about the figures I quoted is that in various dimensions and times-they were the unleashing of Enlightenment values.

            Marie Stopes was a fervent eugenicist -refused to attend her son’s wedding because the bride wore glasses.

            I know of no Christian dimensions to marriage where what you say applies.The comments might apply elsewhere to non-Christian cultures.Ian-give me the “Dark Ages” ( although I don’t accept your point anyway) …any time if it means saving the lives of 200,000 aborted children.Willingly.

            Killing 200,000 unborns per year would impress King Herod and Josef Mengele though. An the “right to die ” campaign will mutate swiftly to the “obligation to die” pressure…see the 1973 sci-fi film “Soylent Green”. Chilling.
            Sorry Secularism and Humanism spring from Enlightenment values and culture and they ARE philosophically connected-read Hegel, -Darwin -Huxley, Nietzsche Gobineau ,Spengler, Darre, -WHE Chamberlain -Marx , Lenin-HG Wells , the Fabians-Stopes, the Bloomsbury Circle.
            All wonderful dinner party guests no doubt.

          • Ian

            I take your point, but the vast majority of ‘the ruling classes’ were religious in one way or another, but don’t forget that ALL religions are man-made. It was men that wrote down the myths, that mis-traslated Aramaic into Greek, that acting on Constantine’s orders selected which Chistianities should be excluded and which included.

            As far as Stopes is concerned I was only referring to her efforts with regards to birth control. With regard to her being a eugenicist Professor Jerry Coyne (Why Evolution if True) made the point sonme time ago that by using the science of Optics we are changing evolution. People who would otherwise be prevented from study and would have been excluded from the gene pool because they had less to offer – nothing to do with eugenics – are now able to fulfil their potential.

            Secularism and Humanism springing from Enlightenment values is one thing but to extrapolate that the way in which you have is simply a non sequitur.

            But it’s your attitudes to females that I have difficlty with: they are subservient to men (perhaps you might exlcude Magaret Thatcher and HMQ), men have the right to sexual intercourse, of course according to the RCC there must be no attempt to prevent conception. Women on the other hand have to accept any pregnancy that might just come their way, they have no rights in this matter at all, irrespective of their age or health, and if they die then SO BE IT! – This is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
            Women impregnated by rape, familial or otherwise, I had in mind the 9 year old girl who became pregnant with twins after being raped by a male relative. Women such as the Indian Dentist in Ireland, sentenced to death because the RCC hospital refused her a termination and her non-viable foetus still had a heart beat, and she died of an infection when she could, and should, have lived.

            And no-one has as yet attempted to explain what happens to the ‘souls’ implanted into fertilized human eggs, that self-abort, that’s approximately 30% of the total.

  • Rifleman819

    Ian ,
    I am intrigued….honest.
    You said…”we would withdraw all religious financial support”.
    Taking you absolutely at your word….how exactly would you go about it then?

    • Rifleman819

      Ian,

      And again……I fully understand you Ian wanting to deny me any funding from public funds, including taxation,for Catholic schools.

      By the way ,is this the same Ian who also and equally wants me to fully fund from public funds, including taxation, NHS abortions?

      • Ian

        This is the Ian that want a secular Parliament.

        • Rifleman819

          Ian

          Fine …but this is the Ian that has to remember that he won’t get one ………and any chances are rapidly going out the window -in the next few years you will probably get the first religious parties in Parliament.

          I guarantee they will not be Christian political parties-that’s for sure.

          Ian it will come down to ASH versus political Islam.
          ASH=Atheist,Secular , Humanist

    • Rifleman819

      Ian ,
      To carry on with the litany of the great secular philosophers…let’s take and add to the list Jeremy Bentham, John Stuart Mill and Henry Sidgwick…the Utilitarian brand of very English “down the nose” culture at looking at inferior beings…..pure Enlightenment philosophy…debated in the greatest salons where the Great and the Good deliberate on how to control the underclasses.This strand has always been one of the tensions in the history of the British Labour movement-Sidney and Beatrice Webb-LSE Fabians…were actually fearful snobs and had contempt for the “workers and peasants”.
      Humanity is lost there.

  • Rifleman819

    Balance,
    No not at all!
    Total misreading .Where did at all did I say this? I am merely consistently pointing out the bleed in’ Basil Fawlty obvious…as Deacon Nick understands…..why do I defend the Catholic Faith…..because I believe it to be true.
    Equally anyone can attack the Catholic Church and it’s human failings as an institution ….but exactly as your Blog handle suggests…..where is the equal venoms reserved for other faiths?
    Sorry there appears to be a distinct lack.
    In fact I rather admire Islam……go beyond a certain level and you KNOW what the consequences will be.That is why the seculars , humanists, atheists, rationalists, Guardianistas, etc …call them what you will…..never ever take on Islam.
    The people who attack me and the Catholic Faith in the UK are free to do so ….but why do you get all self-righteous when I point out the cowardly obvious? They will never , ever do the same with Islam .
    Are you going to , Balance?
    I salute you if you will. No …no offence to Islam and it’s belief system at all ……merely contempt for those who try it on with Christians but who need an oil change if you suggest they do the same with the Muslim Faith.In a word, Balance …..there is no “balance” is there?
    Correct me if I am wrong.

    • Rifleman819

      For Balance again ,
      Would you like to hazard a guess why the Saatchi Gallery put on display a very offensive indeed window depiction of the Holy Family….but has never displayed one of any Islamic event? Nor is ever likely to do so?

      Why might this be? And if there had been Muslim objections to the portrayal of the Blessed Virgin Mary do you think that the Gallery would still keep it on display?
      So proxy and faux indignation on your part perhaps need to be reserved for those who have two completely parallel judgement systems…one for Catholics and the other for everyone else.
      And in regard to Islam ….just remember that Catholics have thirteen centuries prior engagement….a bit longer than latte-quaffing secularists , thank you very much.

  • Rifleman819

    For Ian again ,
    Regarding your imagery of whacking the Islamic dog (haram in the Koran btw)….with a newspaper till it gets the message………take off those rose coloured specs as you do so ……as it’ll have your arm off …..at the elbow as well……….

  • James

    Deacon Nick I followed this story and passed it to several of my brothers and and sisters…..we all contacted saatchi and saatchi to tell them that if they didnt remove it we will hold a legal protest. they seem to have listened, we are going there saturday to make sure that it has been removed. I was sent a personal email by the CEO’s secretary confirming it will be removed. I will update you tomorrow when we go down to investigate. I hope they keep their word or else they are getting some serious pepetual rosarys.

    would you like to see the emails sent and exchanged?

    ps Watch the person commenting as me…………

  • Rifleman819

    Dear All,
    Fascinating one in this morning’s “Guardian”-their coverage of the Jesus-Mohammed tee shirts case where students at the LSE’s ASH society(Atheist,Secularist,Humanist)were allegedly removed from the students’ union by security staff after Muslim students (Bet they would never do it if it were Christians) complained.

    Covering all bases……the tee shirt wearers were duly ejected but later on the LSE leadership apologised to them.

    Surprise …surprise….the Guardian’s comments section about the incident is very , very firmly closed.

    For Balance and others………why do you think this might be then………?

  • James

    It has been removed. It has been verified in person

  • Rifleman819

    Balance,

    In direct reply to you …..I ask a question of you.

    You seem very keen to raise the question of religious discrimination and mockery.Well let’s put it another way, shall we?

    OK. then…..can you tell me why this ” other religion” is NOT mocked and mine and Deacon Nick’s IS mocked?
    Perhaps the solution to discrimination lies a bit closer to home?
    If those who attack religion with mockery are a bit selective with the targets I think you answer your own question.

  • Rifleman819

    For Ian ,
    “All religions are man -made”…nope ….don’t accept your premise at all.
    Marxist-Leninism is man-made…yes.
    Where on earth did you get that idea about “attitudes to females” from?!
    We are all image uniquely different in the image of God-a little lower than angels.
    The Irish abortion case is so “pat” and is a planned hatchet job…used by the abortion lobby to achieve their aim of killing unborn children -Dr Mengele would be very proud…….as would Marie Stopes.
    And a point about the bien-pensant secular Left…from Marx, Lenin, Trotsky and all the other secular paladins of Hegelian secularism ……very very few were/are “of the workers and peasants”…in fact they despise the working classes.Remember it was Trotsky who sent in the Red Guards to quell a genuine second mutiny by Russian sailors at Kronstadt who suddenly realised they had been conned by the atheistic Reds.
    Deacon Nick can take you up on the theology of the soul -a complex area.
    Where internationally is …….”Atheist Aid”? Never seen it …have you?

    • Ian

      There is secular aid aplenty. Charity for the sake of being charitable not with bronze age myths in the driving seat.

      As for religions being man-made, if they were divinely inspired there would have been no argument as to what should have been incorporated in the books of the ‘one true religion’, would there?

      As for ‘the Irish abortion case’ as you put it – a hatchet job? Are you saying that religious dogma and belief had no part in this woman’s death?

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