Leading member of ACTA Portsmouth proposes that the bishops drop Latin and create an English rite

Denis Archdeacon, a leading member of ACTA Portsmouth, has written a letter published on The Tablet website that proposes that the Bishops of England and Wales drop Latin from the Latin-Rite Roman Missal and commission the composition of an original English-rite liturgy:

‘I agree with almost all of Lawrence West’s comments (Letters Extra, 17 January). But I would like to take further his last paragraph in which he says: “The Tridentine Mass in the original was heavily flawed. What is needed is not simply a new translation of it but a rewriting along the lines of the proposals of the late-lamented ICEL.”

I am not certain quite what Mr West means here, but I would propose not so much a rewriting of a translation from a Latin original, but rather that the Latin original should be set aside. Then the bishops’ conferences of the English-speaking world, with the help of the best liturgists, writers and poets, could commission a completely new English text of the Mass (of course with reference to ancient texts of the Eucharist in Greek, Latin and other languages).

Pope Francis appears to be putting trust in setting his bishops free. So let them get on with the job. There is nothing sacred about Latin. It was not the original language of the liturgy in the West, so why should it be on a pedestal? There simply is no need to be imprisoned by a Latin text of the Mass, which did not exist even in Rome itself for the first 200 or so years of the life of the Western Church.

What we need now is not the stumbling, arrhythmic Mass of the new translation but a liturgy written from scratch in a vigorous, vivid and poetic contemporary English. It can be done.  Denis Archdeacon, Winchester.’

Protect the Pope comment: The dissent movement A Call to Action claim that their one objective is the implementation of the Second Vatican Council, but here we have a leading member of ACTA Portsmouth completely disregarding Sacrosanctum Concilium. What ACTA really means is that they are seeking the implementation of the ‘Spirit of Vatican II’ with its ragbag of dissent and will-to-power. Here are the sections of Sacrosanctum Concilium that  Denis Archdeacon is ignoring in his call for an English-rite:

36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

2. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

54. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

101. 1. In accordance with the centuries-old tradition of the Latin rite, the Latin language is to be retained by clerics in the divine office. But in individual cases the ordinary has the power of granting the use of a vernacular translation to those clerics for whom the use of Latin constitutes a grave obstacle to their praying the office properly. The vernacular version, however, must be one that is drawn up according to the provision of Art. 36.

http://www.thetablet.co.uk/letters-extra/2/237/0/reimagining-the-liturgy

66 comments to Leading member of ACTA Portsmouth proposes that the bishops drop Latin and create an English rite

  • Rifleman819

    Deacon Nick ,
    “Denis Archdeacon”-wot a name , eh?
    Re-writing the Missal…..bit behind the curve actually….another(erstwhile) Archdeacon beat him to it by a mere 465 years…a chap called Thomas Cranmer, as I recall. And look what happened to him.

    • Mark Thorne

      Obviously a pseudonym, yes – I wonder whether Denis’s role model could be Denis the Menace?

      Incidentally, I am now hoping to attend the ACTA Southwark meeting in Amigo Hall on Feb. 8th – I think I can revise my original plans suitably.

      • Chi Rho

        You should try and see if you could record the Talk(s) somehow and find out for definite their Agenda.

      • Wake Up England

        Mark Thorne:

        Well it would be wonderful if you could go the ACTA meeting at Southwark Cathedral’s Amigo Hall on Saturday 8th February.

        What time does this meeting start?

        I wonder if anyone else reading this could also go with Mark Thorne?

  • In contrast to the above garbage written by a reactionary 1960′s Luddite, I offer you the words of the Bishop of Portsmouth addressed to his deacons two months ago:

    “First of all, that we make it our business as deacons to carry out the sacred actions and the sacred words of the liturgy exactly in accordance with what the Church asks of us, the rubrics, not more not less, so that anyone coming into church for the first time can receive exactly what the Church intends, that is, the best practice.

    Secondly, that we give attention as deacons consciously to developing the habit of using the sacramentals the Church gives us. I am thinking of those simple gestures such as bowing the head at the Holy Name of Jesus, genuflecting when passing the Tabernacle, making the Sign of the Cross when passing a church or when seeing a funeral-hearse go by, saying grace before meals, installing a devotional object in the car, wearing a clerical collar when on duty, keeping special the fast-days and the feast-days and so on. Many too-clever-by-half Catholics dismiss all this as traditional clap-trap, yet these are the very things that generate a culture. They speak volumes to outsiders and in a simple way give witness to what we are about, that we are different, we are Catholics and disciples of Christ.

    And thirdly, that as deacons each of us develops a truly graceful ars celebrandi: that the liturgy is a sacred art-form, that it has a style, that in the sanctuary we stand, sit, speak and move liturgically. The Person who celebrates the liturgy is not the bishop; it is not the priest and it is not the deacon. The One who celebrates the liturgy is Jesus Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit, He is offering Himself to the Father, and so in the liturgy we are always ‘under’ him; we are always standing ‘behind’ him; we are always substituting for him. There is a sense in which as liturgical ministers we ought to be invisible in the liturgy, underneath it or entirely behind it, doing its words and gestures almost in the background. Sometimes the phrase ‘to preside’ is taken in a Protestant sense, as if the bishop, priest or deacon is the coordinator. Worse, for some ‘to preside’ means to be a compere, fronting the show. No, the liturgical minister is re-presenting the Person of Jesus Christ. He is acting in persona Christi. He is putting Christ first, not himself.”

  • Mr Grumpy

    I don’t think myself that what happened to Cranmer is a laughing matter. That aside you’ve hit the nail squarely on the head. Though I suspect Mr Archdeacon is more of a Common Worshipper than a Prayer Book man.

    • Rifleman819

      Mr Grumpy,
      Neither was what he tried and failed to impose on the English people-the Pilgrimage of Grace 1536 and the Prayer Book Rebellion 1549 weren’t stand-up comedy either , as far as I can recall.
      I like your last sentence-interesting nuances to it I must say.

  • Patrick Fahey

    Well pointed out Riflemas819

  • What’s in a name? that which we call a protestant
    By any other name would smell as such?

    - to paraphrase the bard.

  • Bob Hayes

    Am I alone in being very disturbed by the deep-rooted undercurrent of xenophobia that permeates so much of the agenda and rhetoric of ACTA and its fellow-travellers?

    These predominantly white, middle-class and Anglo-Celtic rebels use florid language to disguise their general disdain for ‘johnny foreigner’ – e.g. the Vatican and the Church in the developing world.

    Note, for example, the fetid stench of hypocrisy in ‘The Tablet’ coverage of Cardinal Maradiaga’s comments about Archbishop Müller. Under the headline ‘C8’s Cardinal Maradiaga castigates CDF prefect’ the Bitter Pill quotes the Cardinal: ‘He’s a German, one has to say, and above all he’s a German theology professor, so in his mentality there’s only truth and falsehood’.

    Imagine this sentence where the word ‘German’ is replaced by ‘black’ or ‘gay’…. ‘The Tablet’ would be in uproar. However, ‘The Tablet’ is happy to unquestioningly promote racial stereotyping when it serves its agenda. Utter hypocrisy!

    http://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/363/0/c8-s-cardinal-maradiaga-castigates-cdf-prefect-he-s-german-so-he-thinks-in-black-and-white-

  • BJC

    “I am not certain quite what Mr West means here, but I would propose not so much a rewriting of a translation from a Latin original, but rather that the Latin original should be set aside.”

    In the hyperbolic language of Fr. Iggy, what this ACTA supporter seems to be suggesting is the destruction of the new translation of the missal. But as Fr. Iggy rather piously observed in the last post (and Fr. Iggy, I mean this metaphorically not literally, so please don’t twist my words like you did last time):

    “I will simply quote the author of All Quiet On The Western Front, Eric Remarque, when his book was burned by the Nazis, “Those who burn books will also burn people”. They did.”

    I hope other ACTA members will be following this post and will be shocked by Denis Archdeacon’s intolerant attitude and rigidity.

    • Nicolas Bellord

      I do not think it would be just “the destruction of the new translation of the missal” but rather a destruction of the Mass as such. If they do not want to follow the Latin then what will they follow other than what they think the Mass should be and you can imagine what that would be?!!!

      • BJC

        Nicolas

        You are right. What this is really all about, is replacing a sacrifice on an altar offered by a priest, with a having a community meal around a table with bits of bread and wine.

  • What you fail to understand is that in Portsmouth they have under the former bishop already abandoned the Catholic Faith. The bureaucrats who ran the diocese were paid to ensure that in every parish only those who followed he Spirit of Vaictn II would have any position of responsibility. Faithful Catholics who Maswere sneered at and marginalised. So the anti-Latin and Tridentine opposition flourished. What also flourished was the ideology that “We do not need the Pope”, I once attended a parish meeting on this theme. I was not surprised then when at a recent meeting I said that people who run the parish would oppose any interpretation of the Bible which supported the Catholic Church my remark was taken for granted. Mr Archdeacon is all about power and buioing a Church he wants and hedoes not give a fig for the beliefs of others. Ecumenically of course he will be a pillar of understanding but when it comes to catholis who disagree with him then we see the true `Spirit of Vatican II

    • John, you are a little behind the times. The whole “Dept for Pastoral Formation” was made redundant last June and the new curia or “Framework for Collaboration” which is being appointed now will be a rather different kettle of fish. Watch this space.

      P.S. if you live in the diocese of Portsmouth and you are prepared to volunteer as a lay member of the new curia, application forms for the departments which are recruiting can be found on the diocesan website.

      • No John is not behind the times! The department may have been made redundant, but the ‘players’ are still active even if they haven’t officially signed up to acta:( They’re still spreading the untruths in most ‘pastoral’ areas!

        • Then the thing to do first is to expose those “players” as Deacon Nick does here on PtP. Get their names well-known so that those of good will who can do something about it know where the problems are. Use technology to help the cause, video their abuses and upload them to Youtube – they can be valuable tools to train clergy in “How not to…” Find local, like-minded, believing Catholics and get involved in the life of the Church. The only way to beat these people is with truth, love and prayer.

          • It’s much more subtle than that! Not going into the detail right now but trust me the lobby is there and people are oblivious. It’s insidious and the only answer right now is prayer

          • Let’s put it this way, for a start: if all catechists, Eucharistic ministers, altar servers, etc. were to have to sign a document saying they believed everything the Magisterium of the Catholic Church stood for, would they be lying? Do many of them even believe in the Real Presence? Do they believe it is a mortal sin to willingly miss Mass on Saturday evening / Sunday? Have they heard any of this from a priest lately?

  • Kinga Grzeczynska

    What ridiculous ideas some members of ACTA have. Of course liberty allows the freedom of speech and the freedom to propose something. Therefore, Mr Archdeacon has written and proposed. That should be the end of the matter?!

    I like Latin in any Mass. It is universal in Catholic churches. There is a sense of close proximity with Rome and the Holy Pontiff, when I hear Latin during Mass. Also, it takes me back to my youth, whenever we were on holiday in Europe, and my Mother took us to Sunday Mass (in whatever country)Latin was the norm and there was no problems with it.

    Poor + Philip Egan. Let us pray for him that his patience does not run out with groups of people who think that they have powers to change Holy Mother Church.

    ‘Pope Francis appears to be putting trust in setting his Bishops free’ Now that statement is food for thought. Hang on to your rosaries!

    Kinga Grzeczynska

  • Sonja

    It is worth reading the letter that immediately follows the dissenting one, written by John Picton, Evesham, — It is a lovely read and a good antidote to the one written by the Archdeacon. I’ve had quite a busy weekend, writing to my clergy to make them aware of the dangers presented by ACTA – and Deacon Nick and your readers — I thank you for the insights and ammunition that this blog provides. WoE is encouraging us to become more organised in support of the anti-ACTA, pro-Catholic Faith campaign. I am a follower rather than a leader, and have little spare time due to still working hard full time for my pension (plus with a dependent) — but many of our Clergy (not all) — are dangerously unaware of the implications and potential consequences. Marie Dean’s courageous testimony a few days a go also springs to mind — but I don’t have the courage to pursue the path of poverty for conviction in the way that Marie did.

    • Wake Up England

      Dear Sonja,

      How marvellous that you have been writing to your clergy.

      A couple of weeks ago I did indeed make the very serious suggestion that an attempt to form a group of laypeople and clergy would be a good idea. Deacon Nick Donnelly was kind enough to publish a message of support for this idea.

      I appealed directly to regular contributors to this blog, some of whom I listed, in the hope that they might consider founding such a group.

      I very much regret to report that, so far, no-one has taken-up the challenge and my suggestion was largely ignored by those who I suggested as possible leading-lights.

      It must be apparent to even the casual observer of modern trends within the Church that ACTA appears to be gaining mainstream acceptance. With the exception of Protect the Pope and a few other blogs and websites, ACTA goes unchallenged and un-rebuked, notwithstanding their publicly proclaimed agenda to:

      Support the ordination of women

      Revert to the inaccurate 1970s translation of the Mass (and thereby defy the authority of the Church)

      Support the notion of “Gay Marriage” and deny the Very Grave sinfulness of Homosexual sex

      Distort the documents of the Second Vatican Council and use the distortion as the foundation of a New Reformation which strikes at the very heart of True Catholicism as founded by Jesus Christ.

      Unless there is a concerted and organised counter-movement to defend The Truth, ACTA will progress more-or-less unchallenged and cause great damage to God’s church.

      It sadly has become obvious that many bishops are unwilling to challenge ACTA’s aims.

      Therefore I repeat the obvious fact that a counter-movement is vital to fight the evil of ACTA and its supporters and promote the Authentic Catholic Faith and the Authentic teaching of Vatican Two, as summarised in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

      There are many highly able people who read this blog; some of you have spare time; some of you have computer skills; some of you have zeal. Some may be lay men and women; others priests.

      I believe it is vitally important to combat this attack on The Faith in a concerted way. That means forming a group.

      Isn’t anyone prepared at least to TRY in order to help Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?

      • Lynda

        WUE, I responded to you at the time. I’ll add that it’s likely many of the commenters on this blog are doing their best. This forum is not the place to go into personal situations. Communities must be local and of practical help to the members. One should start with the Catholic organisations and communities that already exist. I recommended Tradition, Family and Property and related organisations for one.

        • Lynda

          and lay communities can affiliate with the Confraternity of Catholic Clergy where set up for orthodox Catholic clergy.

        • Wake Up England

          Lynda:

          Yes, you were one of the few who actually said anything positive; but like Epsilon you appear now to be lacking in conviction.

          I disagree with your contention that “This blog is not the place to go into personal situations”

          It might be your opinion, but it is not mine.

          It is easy to be an armchair Catholic and to comment here and on other blogs. I hope it does a bit of good.

          It is wonderful to pray too. Let’s hope our prayers are answered.

          However, it is glaringly obvious that ACTA and its affiliated movements worldwide are gaining momentum fairly fast; therefore a movement could certainly do no harm, and might do a great deal of good.

          It’s becoming rather uncomfortably obvious that no-one really wants to stick their necks out, or get off their computer-chairs and actually DO anything practical.

          Meanwhile ACTA is growing.

          And we’re doing nothing practical to combat their distortions of Almighty God’s Holy Faith.

          Talk’s cheap but Action needs effort, commitment and time.

          • Lynda

            WUE, I can assure you I’ve been anything but an “armchair Catholic” since long before adulthood. I have been very active on crucial matters of morality and the Faith, and been persecuted for it (as most who stand up for the truth are), suffered, and continue to suffer, in various areas of life for it. (I was even physically beaten for it.) This has contributed to the collapse of my health, to the point where I cannot even give my son who has a chronic illness the care he needs. We are also in danger of losing the roof over our heads. I ought not be talking about my personal trials here, but your persistence has worn me down. I apologise to Deacon Donnelly and all for talking about personal matters here. The point I want to make is: don’t presume people aren’t working to their utmost for the Faith and the protection of intrinsic human truths, regarding sacredness of life, marriage and purity, etc. This is not the forum for such discussion, which needs to happen in local communities, and fora meant for tackling those matters.

      • WuE
        Nicholas Bellord suggested those who were concerned here and on Fr Ray Blake’s blog could show solidarity and join A Day With Mary at Westminster Cathedral last Saturday led by sisters and friars of The Immaculate. We could have filled the square as well as the Cathedral. Instead the usual crowd were there. The devout ones. The ones who pray. The ones who listen to preachers like Fr Marcus Holden. The ones who are faithful. They virtually filled the Cathedral, where we had a proper Mass, a proper choir, proper Rosary, a proper sermon on how not to be a cafeteria Catholic, proper Eucharistic Adoration, proper Benediction, and afterwards proper Vespers.

        I’ve come to the conclusion it really is not Catholic to create a counter-acta. What is Catholic is to turn to Our Lady, turn to the saints and pray! Pray for people to turn to God in these turbulent times.
        Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires in hell, lead all souls to Heaven – especially those most in need of Thy Mercy!

        We don’t need to create another group! We just need to join ‘A Day With Mary’ http://www.adaywithmary.org/ , the Legion of Mary http://www.legionofmary.ie/ , good Council Network http://www.goodcounselnet.co.uk/, Sacred Heart Holy Hour http://www.sacredheartholyhour.com Right now I’m trying to find others to set up a Legion of Mary praesidium…

        Put our trust in our Heavenly Family, instead of getting our proverbials in a twist over heretics! They’re crawling all over place, especially in the City where I live. Despite having a fab bishop, the dissident clergy and laity are still honouring Bhudda, the ‘community’, still serving up the role of the priest to others on a plate. We can be scandalised, or we can get down on our knees and pray…

        • Wake Up England

          Epsilon:

          Well, you’ve changed your tune over the last few months, haven’t you?

          A brief look back at the posts of the last few months shew you saying quite stridently on several occasions that “Something must be Done” etc.

          Then you said you “Might get something going”

          Now you’re backtracking at high speed by saying nothing much new needs to be done and that we need not get our knickers in a twist, and shouldn’t be scandalised.

          Quite a change of emphasis within a few short months, Epsilon.

          Prayer is vital, of course; but sometimes Works are required in addition to Faith.

          I strongly and absolutely disagree with your wimpy new bleat that “We don’t need to create another group”

          Your plan of inaction must be music to ACTA’s ears.

          • Lynda

            WUE, Many of us are doing what we can, and have been for many years, on our own and with various organisations. If you haven’t been, but can, then do become more active by joining one of the groups or starting another. As I’ve said many times, we need to support the groups already working. For example, I have supported all the main pro-life groups in Ireland over decades, even during years while those groups didn’t work together. And yes, it’s disheartening, going to various pro-life events over the years, and mostly seeing the same faces, whilst others complain that nothing’s being done but don’t appear to support the campaigns, work, etc. We can never give up, but continue to do whatever we can, whenever we can, and support the work of pro-Faith, pro-morality groups insofar as possible. And, as Supertradmum has written about so much on her blog, now more than ever, we need real Catholic communities to support each other and uphold the truth in Faith and morals. We offer up our suffering to God in reparation for our sins and the sins of the world that holds Him in such contempt. I admire your zeal for the Faith, and for the truth. Let us support each other in truth.

          • Lynda

            WUE, I’d encourage you to affiliate with the CCC in Britain, or the equivalent in Portugal. They are perfectly suited to opposing ACTA and similar attacks on the Church and the Faith. One has only just been started for the orthodox clergy in Ireland.

          • WuE
            If you think setting up a Legion of Mary praesidium in a city like mine is doing nothing, you are greatly mistaken!

          • Wake Up England

            Dear Lynda,

            I am extremely sorry to hear of your trials and tribulations. The most and the least I can do is say a big prayer for you.

            I do apologise for wearing you down and my irritation at the inaction of many was most certainly NOT aimed at you, dear lady.

            God preserve and reward you.

            William Weber.

          • Wake Up England

            Epsilon:

            It’s hopeless to hide your light under a bushel.

            Where is your city, exactly?

            How do we join your branch of the Legion of Mary? I’d be very pleased to become a member.

          • Glad you’re getting to understand WuE:) Just as Lynda has said, we have to try and play a small part in local orthodox groups or try to set them up. Why don’t you set up a Legion of Mary group in your own area? I have been trying for quite a while, even though it hasn’t happened yet, the important thing is to try and also pray. I don’t pray enough, but am working on it!

            These links are useful:

            Here are some clips about the Legion of Mary today, and it’s founders:

            Part 1
            http://youtu.be/OARjd5sY4tU

            Part 2
            http://youtu.be/QugkI-IKIp0

            Part 3
            http://youtu.be/1NdUrxzYkS0

            One of set of talks on founders:
            http://youtu.be/Na3qYgcYo_w

            In China:

            http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw-XZEY0bSA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DIw-XZEY0bSA

            http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pM03XNhksCs

  • Robert

    I am about to cross the Tiber after years of prevarication. I wonder if I am better staying in the C of E. ACtTa will destroy the RC church. Perhaps it’s off to the Orthodox we go!

    • Rifleman819

      Robert , Be firm ………..dealing with ACTA is a task to be undertaken ….”work in hand” , as they say.
      I know some of this could be horribly familiar to you….but take heart.Honest.

      • Wake Up England

        Rifeleman:

        You write “……….dealing with ACTA is a task to be undertaken”

        Dare one possibly hope that you might possibly be thinking of a combat strategy? You would (as I have said before) be a first class organiser of an embryonic campaign to promote Real Catholicism and refute the wicked nonsense that goes so largely un-challenged.

        I’m quite willing to put up some money personally to get things going.

        Any hope?

    • @Robert: As someone who crossed the Tiber a few years back (2008), I encourage you to stay faithful and come into the Catholic Church, into full communion with Peter!

      Yes, there are those who, as Lumen Gentium 14 reminds us, are in the Church bodily, but not in their hearts. Do not fear them, do not let them discourage you on your journey home – rather, pray for them!

      I pray that God will strengthen, embolden and bless you, and may the Blessed Virgin help you to imitate her faithful example.

    • John Fannon

      Robert

      Fr Ray bBlake drew our attention to a riposte made to Napoleon when the Emperor vowed to destroy the Catholic Church. “Sire, you will not succeed. Priests and Bishops within the Church have been trying to do this for the last 1800 years”.

      ACTA are making a certain amount of noise but will not succeed – though no doubt they will be followed by some other noisy group in due course.

  • Independent

    Why not use the ordinariate rite? It will be in good traditional English. Cranmer was a great prose writer and once his heresies are removed his prayers would enrich any rite.

  • “a Latin text of the Mass, which did not exist even in Rome itself for the first 200 or so years of the life of the Western Church”

    ACTA and The Tablet both displaying the limits of their competence in discussing the history of the Mass!

  • John Fannon

    As our new Cardinal comes from Liverpool, the Mass could be in Scouse.

    Instead of “… And with your spirit”, we could have “..and with youse, wack”. Vivid English, undoubtedly; poetic, perhaps not, though Roger McGough could have a go.

    Joking aside, it never ceases to amaze me that the Tabletistas being seemingly quite happy for decades with a Mass translation which was “stumbling and arrhythmic”, throw a hissy fit when very minor changes are made and mutter about the need to create a “Mass of Paul VI”.

    Like Rifleman, I did a double take when I saw this guy’s name. During my lifetime,I’ve met people whose surname was Pope, Priest, Bishop, and Deacon. And there was a film star called Claudia Cardinal. But Archdeacon is a first. . .

    • Rifleman819

      John ,

      Actually I believe that Roger McGough and ++ Vin went to the same school-StMary’s College Crosby-so entirely appropriate.

      “Missa Cantata Merseyiensis”…..published by Kevin Mayhew , naturally.

      • John Fannon

        Rifleman
        Yes they did – the Christian Brothers. (I went to SFX myself).
        Missa Cantata Merseyensis – my mind is starting to boggle.

        • Rifleman819

          Byrd’s “Birkenhead Mass for 5 voices.”….Palestrina’s “Missa Liver”…..

          Mozart’s “Toxeth Symphony”

          One could go on………but perhaps not………..?

          • Louis

            Rifleman,
            During Benedict XVI’s Mass at Westminster there was a fascinating rendition of the “Memento Domine famulorum…” (EP1) in Scouse Latin, in the spirit of Comme le prévoit. It’s widely available on the internet and has provided endless hilarity for Classics students at university. I’d look it up before pressure is put on folks to have it removed. Even the rather Liberal, Spirit of Vatican II, Fr. Joseph S O’Leary SJ has this to say about EP1: “If there are priests who do not love the Roman Canon in Latin I am sorry for them. It is one of the iconic texts of Christianity, along with the Veni Creator (and the Veni Sancte Spiritus), the Salve Regina, the Pange Lingua. This is DNA-level.”

          • Louis

            Rifleman
            Scousers like to do things in style. Papa Wojtyla was escorted out of the cathedral to Le Sueur’s Coronation March for Napoleon – or maybe that was a proto-ACTA Freudian slip.

    • CatholicBlogger

      Cardinal Sin

  • JabbaPapa [Julian Lord]

    Why doesn’t this man just join the CoE ?

  • Joseph Matthew

    Why should we combat ACTA and its desire to create a Catholic Church in England which is English first and Catholic second? Because they have tried that experiment in Germany and the Catholic Church in Germany will soon be in schism. Actually, that may have come about already.

  • Kieran

    I’m not sure ACTA is really interested in dialogue. They seem to dismiss anybody who disagrees with them as traditionalists or right wingers, they continue to make assertions without evidence (eg. All Catholics in the pew are against the new translation). I was hoping that they would simply disappear but it would seem that they are now actively promoting themselves. I have not heard of much activity in my own diocese, Salford, but I have noticed that a group does exist here. I noticed that sound Catholic theologians were not mentioned on the list of those who should develop this English Rite. As I understand it there is a traditional English rite, the Sarum Rite, but of course this is in Latin, perhaps it should be translated into English!

  • Rifleman819

    Kieran,
    Absolutely correct-ACTA have no interest in dialogue whatsoever because they already realise that their menu of theological/doctrinal demands will not be countenanced.
    So they are out to cause as much agitprop damage as possible-which is why the bishops must deny them any resources whatsoever.
    But the sad thing is …it appears that some of our own bishops are themselves crypto-ACTA sympathisers.
    ACTA activists know this as well………which is why the filling of soon-to-be-vacant Sees across England and Wales is so utterly crucial. Vatican II concluded in Dec 1965.Next year in 2015 -the end of the Council will be 50 years ago.Those alive in the Catholic world 50 years ago -if adults -have a direct memory…but those who do so are themselves a fast diminishing group.
    ACTA are comprised of a hard core of ageing crypto-Protestants sailing under Catholic colours.
    Loyal Catholics must ensure that their ship is given the Armada treatment…and that ACTA’s patron Saint really is St.Davy Jones and his locker.

  • Kieran

    Hi Rifleman,
    I’m all for theological discussion, it can and often does lead us to a greater understanding of the faith. Some of my speculation can be on occasion a little far out, but the faith is the faith, and as a Catholic I accept and embrace it as professed by the Church. What I don’t understand is why a group who profess to love the Church should make such illogical demands. I’m a Vatican II Catholic born in the 70′s, there is nothing wrong with the Council in itself, but what is being done in its name is a scandal to our faith. ACTA and it’s members need to grow up, and instead of trying to change what we believe go out and proclaim faithfully what the Church believes and teaches!

  • Rifleman819

    Kieran ,
    I’m a bit older and vividly remember the slow strangulation of traditional everything in the 1960s..not just in the Churches but throughout all aspects of Western society.
    In sum -we dumbed down.Even as a nipper I could see liturgies being changed apparently month by month …but being a child I could not see the wider picture.
    40 Years later the fruition of all this is very evident.
    I think this ACTA stuff is the last swishing of the tail of the 60′s hippy dinosaur.
    So arrogant are this lot that they failed to realise that the guitar folk-song culture is now itself frozen in the amber of history…..the world has moved on , thankfully.
    But these egotistical clowns still have the capacity to cause damage before they shuffle off the stage.
    And it is quintessentially ironic that Josef Ratzinger-their bete-noir…and the focus of so much hatred …is probably the only person still living (apart from Hans Kung)who was there in Rome 1962-65.
    He must smile at being given lectures about Vatican 2 by those who were still in nappies when it was convening.

    • Augustine

      Dear Rifleman, there is one person in the news who makes Hans Kung and Josf Ratzinger look like teenagers.

      Archbishop Loris Francesco Capovilla has been named as one of the new Cardinals – but he will be ineligible to vote at the next Conclave as he is over 80.

      He is the former Archbishop of Chieti-Vasto on Archbishop Emeritus of the Loreto Prelature. But before that he held these positions he was Secretary to Pope John XXIII.

      Archbishop Capovilla is 98 years young :-)

      Two years ago he gave an interview about his famous boss. See:

      http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1201848.htm

      Apparently when a cardinal complained that due to a recent rise in Vatican salaries a mere usher earned as much as he did, Pope John remarked: “That usher has 10 children; I hope the cardinal doesn’t.”

  • Rifleman819

    Augustine
    Wonderful!!

  • Ioannes

    What Denis is suggesting is not new. Back in 1969 ‘Comme le prevoit’ (at least a semi-official document) envisaged the next move after dynamic equivalence – different regions moving beyond translation and writing their own Mass texts in their own languages. Before this could happen Paul VI got cold feet (or belatedly came to his senses). There is a pattern to all this. The progressives see in the new pontificate an opportunity, albeit a slight one, of restarting the revolution cut short in the mid-1970s. They still hold positions of influence, but their power is waning, and they know it. They have an air of desperation about them. Don’t underestimate their capacity for making mischief, however.

  • Rifleman819

    Ioannes,

    Thanks to Deacon Nick ….we can still see some potency in this Zimmer-framed coterie…but you are dead right.

    Old Father Time is a-beckoning relentlessly……and the once agitprop light infantry are now the arthritic Chelsea Pensioners.

    God sees to all things.

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